When the 360 was announced, and later as it was launched, gamers everywhere have wondered whether or not Microsoft made the right choice in not including a next-gen drive such as HD-DVD to allow for more space to accommodate the more complex gaming experiences promised on the 360.
While there has been much argument on the matter, Games First takes a look at the issue and dives head-in to try to answer the question on everyone's minds: Will we run into a speed block later on?
The short answer is no. The authors argue that most 360 games today take up about half of the space available on a DVD-9 disc, and games with complex environments don't necessarily hog gigabytes of information. They study the increase that Xbox 1 games had over the life of the system, and make some strange findings.
We find that there is often a misconception about how big an Xbox 360 or Xbox title really is. For example, people often assume that Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind has a large filesize since it contains an extremely large gaming environment. However, Morrowind is actually one of the smallest games on the Xbox, only 900 megabytes big.
Take the screenshot above as an example. Azurik and Far Cry. There is a world of difference, and it seems that Far Cry WOULD require more data, but it turns out Far Cry is only 500 megabytes larger, not a giant leap. Be sure to check out the article. It's a good read.
[Via, Games First]
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Yeah right, why don't they say how much space Halo 3 will take up? People say that 7gb of space is enough, and I say sure, for this gen, but not for next gen. Every generation, the quality and graphics of the game usually require atleast 4x the space and usually take up 10x the space.
Was 300kb enough for Snes? Was 4mb enough for N64? Was 50mb enough for Gamecube? I think not. I see 30gb games becoming quite common. The future of gaming is unraveling right now. Even Windows next version will require atleast 1TB storage capacity HDD.
Everyone is being too naive. Microsoft has screwed us all that bought a 360. How much do you think a add-on HD-DVd drive will cost? $50? I think not, since we had to buy the wireless adapter for like $100. I see an Xbox 1080 coming out like in 2 years. Since this is Microsofts style making everyone buy expensive upgrades frequently. I regret not spending the 360 money on upgrading my pc instead.
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to the fool who posted above most ppl havent even exceeded 400gb of mem for windows to require 1tb your and idiot check your facts before posting........ also most games used padding or trash to fill space on a disk padding is like 650mb most of the time so if they can use new compression like wmvhd theres no point for all that space.
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I laugh at the fanboy who posted first.
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YEah,and hes a idiot.I dont think he makes games for a living,so he shouldnt know.The biggest game for the first xbox would have to be RAllysport 2,it was around 7 almost 8 gigs big.It was only so big because it had 8 diffrent languges files with tons of dupe videos of the samethings.9gigs is more then enough
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to the first post, i used to agree with you, then i actually read the article. im sure you can read too, so why dont you give it a try, then post again. try the demo of the 92kb game w/xbox graphics. enough said.
and xbox discs have 9gb of storage, not 7 you idiot
and next windows will support 1tb, not REQUIRE it.
AND the hd-dvd drive will not be for games, it will be strictly for movies. and considering how much a standalone player will cost, im sure the price for 360 owners will be quite cheap
you really are stupid
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Lol and the first poster claims that there will be a new xbox type in 2 years because "that's their style"...
what a dumbass, the current xbox has been out 5 years before the 360 came along
some people just need to learn basic thinking functions
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Even from a Nintendo fan like me, I love my PC too and my 120gb HD is still doing ok and hay 160 is like $50. A 1 TB... No thanks...
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O rly?
I believe them, games these days do not take up that much :-p
I still think that the DVD is in good shape.
The next disk media would probably be a HVD. Large leap, but once it becomes cheap, it'd be nice to have.
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+ the xbox 360 supports much higher compression standards. With 3 hyperthreaded cores, one or two threads can easily be set aside to handle highly compressed data.
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There is much irrational freaking out going on about the DVD size in games. It's great to see an article do some real research and dispell some myths.
First of all, the size of the media does not determine the game at all. It's the cpu, mem, and video processor that determine whether a game in "next gen" or not. Size of media will only determin how much you can store. If it's ever needed, they can always use 2 DVD's. Who cares? What does it matter if 15 hours into a 30 hour game you put in a second disc?
ALso, if size where a factor, then you would also start to see most games on PC (which is less efficient than a console) needing two DVD's, but I have yet to buy even one that came on two DVDs.
I think the whole DVD thing is a red herring. It's a dumb public myth. I think if it were really a problem most programmers would be speaking out. And they are not. The games I have seen so far are great on regular DVDs.
ALso, it should be noted that the Gamecube's discs are smaller than the current PS2 and Xbox DVD's. That hasn't really made any of the cross platform games look different on the Gamecube. Other than performance differences. It's not like the Gamecube games are missing half the levels because they have a half size disc.
If you remember, some games for PS2 were still coming out on CD when it was launched!!! Does anyone remember that?
Fritzilla
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Gamecube's disc had negative points.
Comparing the two, you can see the difference straight away.
it may be small and cute, but it doesn't support high quality decals on the disc.
it also has lower disc space, resulting in 2 disc RE4.
and elder scroll is small because it doesn't have much prerendered movies.
if you don't have much of them, of course your game won't be as big.
if you think about it, why would a big map result in a significantly bigger game size?
it's stupid to think that way.
Was your pirated San Andreas and GTA 3 so huge?
if you think through it, there isn't much need for higher storage size with the exception of prerendered movies, as the rest datas are modelling datas and textures, which can be used to create bigger maps with recurring textures, so you can use small pictures to create a huge map that looks stunning, which was what elder scrolls did.
BUT
if it comes as standard, why bother talking against it?
if it doesn't, live with it. you've obviously agreed with the company you got your product from.
The most annoying thing at the moment is, that the companies are not even bothering to make games have bigger content. For example, Final Fantasy filled the disc with FMVs and stuff. but the games from america, and europe, just seemed to be there for the money. I can't enjoy from playing them. NEVER. only the ones from the top companies, HL2, CS:S, War3, WoW and only FEW more, actually please me.
when I play the other games, I actually feel that they didn't put enough efforts in!
BECAUSE of the above reason, I think DVD9 will be enough.
But the parent article is making the argument.....really badly.
first of all, top ranking XBOX GAMES???
are you joking?
I mean, even if you're xbox fanboy and stuff, you gotta admit xbox didn't have that much great games. at least, not as much as ps2.
Who, other than xbox owners, could tell anyone 5 Xbox only games that actually was good?
and the author is seriously flawed.
he did not count the GENERATIONAL difference AT ALL. All these stats only prove that Xbox 360 launch games isn't next-gen enough.
and even though we may not NEED the storage, if we do, we might be able to see more detailed and more high resolution maps and characters.
SADLY, this is only just an Xbox fan article....
PS. HD quality movies will be at the least, 35GB in size.
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at first i didnt disagree with the guy above me but some things he said are seriousle flawed. first you do not need 35GB for hd movies. hd-wmv has been used a few times on such movies as terminator 2 xtreme addition and it fit on a dvd-9 disk. so obviously good compression can realy make a difference. On top of that if you can not name 5 good exclusives for xbox then you are eighther a sony fanboy or have chose not to pay attention because even though ps2 has a lot more, there are a very good amount of exclusive titles and the multiplatform games usualy are best on xbox. also all 360 game require at least 720p so your comment on high resolution maps is stupid. pc game support much higher resolution so they require more detailed high resolution maps and i have yet to see a pc game that reguires more than one. the things that make a games graphics next-gen are higher detail and better resolution maps and textures, better modeling using more polygons or triangles, better effects, and so on. none of those exept textures realy require more space on a disk and the texture can be compressed and dont take up much space in the first place. if 360 had hd-dvd of course it would be a good thing but not having it is not a bad thing and because it keeps costs down it might be better for some.
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you are retarded. a hd-wmv can fit on a dvd-9 disk. proof= the xtreme eddition of terminator 2 came with a hd-wmv copy of the movie for the pc that fit on ONE dvd-9 disk. of course more space is a good thing but there IS plenty of space still on dvd-9 and the better graphics of this generation do NOT require very much more space. also if you cant name 5 good xbox exclusive YOU are a fanboy. I can name 5 good exclusive for EVERY system, even game gear and psp. well 4 for psp.
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I also heard somewhere that Windows Vista would take up a minimum 1 terabyte aswell. A quick question, wouldn't more compression = more loss in quality? Too much compression gives you to much loss in quality and too much loading due to decompression. An hour of HD video takes up like 10Gb of space on my HD-DVR so that makes one assume that 9 GB is not enough for a next gen title.
Xbox 360 is only semi-next gen. It's the next dreamcast, and multi disc cds where not able to keep up to dvd titles at the time. Xbox 360 is still nice, but I wish they had waited a bit longer.
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I dont think DVD-9's will be enough for the Xbox 360 in the long run.
Bethesda has already said that Oblivion will take up the FULL DVD-9.
So right off the bat developers are reaching their limits.
Next-Gen systems need to offer more space than there previous system so that their games can... ya know... be NEXT GEN!
And for the record, most of the facts the original-poster posted are valid. And instead of telling him to check his facts, youd be wise to check the facts first before you bash him.
-Windows Vista does suggest you have 1tb of HDD space, with SATA harddrives no less.
-It is microsoft's style to upgrade there products constantly, just because they didnt do it with the original xbox doesnt mean you need to call him a liar.
For those of you that think the 92KB demo that was linked in the artical was amazing, it was. But those are games which are writen ONLY in code. They have no textures, and no models. And making games like this is EXTREMELY hard, which is why there are only demos out of such games. and a full game like this has never been made (SPORE will be the first)
Every next-gen means higher res maps and higher poly models. Both of which means much much higher file size. Give the next-gen what it wants... more space...
... i guess it must have slipped microsofts mind.
-Ash-
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I fail to see why games need more than 9gb anyway. As far as I'm concerned, anything with a requirement higher than that is purely a result of bad / sloppy coding and poor optimisation.
Pre-rendered FMV scenes do nothing for me and i'd rather see the games using their own engines for cutscenes. Games like Final Fantasy on the PS2 fill up their discs with FMV content and its nothing more than that, filler.
If you can fit a game the size of Elder Scrolls: Oblivion onto 1 disc with the level of graphics that it has, then I fail to see why any time soon you'd need much more space.
The size of the storage media does not determine the quality of the game. Look at Geometry Wars.
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ok as far as mister first post goes, try and stick to the topic of STORAGE space for games and stop babling on about system RAM they are 2 different things in the subject. as far as storage goes most games anyways are fmv's,padded files,dummie files,and demos and left in files from dev. so with dvd-9 i dont see a size issue anytime soon.
and as far as the hd-dvd drive goes i dont think any of use should label it as "strickly" for video use since selling it simply as a video drive would probably be retarted, i can see somewhere along the road microsoft deciding to use the external drive for games if its needed, reason why they havent said its going to be for games could be cuz if mentioned alot of gamers would probably be mad having to buy a external addon to play future games. much like the ps2 and its late entry hard drive not being widely supported.
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I might be wrong, but if I remember correctly, the HD Terminator film came on a hybrid disc, with a normal DVD player reading the DVD layer & a HD-DVD player reading the HD layer. That's how I recollect it.
Personally I can't see how moving to 2 DVD games will be a problem. PGR3 looks amazing & that probably doesn't fill a full disc. Quake 4 is also about 2Gb, so games that use 2 or 3 full DVDs are a while off IMO.
Also for anyone wondering about this 95kb game, its called Kkreiger.
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read the article! some games in the 360's lifetime MAY require 2 disks but ALL of the games out for it now use less than HALF of the space. even oblivion and enchanerm use only 1 disk. there is no problem here. it would be nice to have hddvd but if that means 360 would be more expensive just so you can play the new movies and limit the ocasianal game by 1 disk then i am glad they didnt add it. that is not fanboyism, that is logic based on my opinions. besides i am getting a ps3 too so i can use that for movies and i can always buy the hddvd atachment for 360 later IF i want it.
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"XNA represents a refinement of everything that has been learned developing for the Xbox, which has an architecture that is very similar to the Xbox 360. As a new development tool, it represents a change in the way that game developers might program, and how it impacts on filesize is an unknown factor."
I can already tell you how it impacts filesize -- it won't. XNA is for the programmers... It's main point is about getting core engine technology ironed out faster, which has little to nothing to do with content creation.
^Taken from cpiasminc
Do you want a long linear game?
DVD9 media may be enough
Do you want a game with a lot of content?
DVD9 media may be enough
Do you want a game with a lot of content which fidelity may not suffer from too heavy compression?
DVD9 media may not be enough
Do you want a game with lots of HD FMV, voice acting, music and everything else (e.g. next-gen FF game)?
DVD9 media sure is not enough!
^Taken from VG Aficinado
I find it that theese two posts make some good points. Reed them, then just go on arguing.
BTW: cpiasminc is a programmer
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"I also heard somewhere that Windows Vista would take up a minimum 1 terabyte aswell. A quick question, wouldn't more compression = more loss in quality? Too much compression gives you to much loss in quality and too much loading due to decompression. An hour of HD video takes up like 10Gb of space on my HD-DVR so that makes one assume that 9 GB is not enough for a next gen title."
For your information, i have the beta build of vista installed, and I can tell you, that it only takes up 3,48 GB (3.741.437.952 byte)of space. If you don't believe me, go to this page: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v604/Sephiroth_VII/41.jpg
As you can see by looking at your own windows directory, this isn't XP.
P.S. The pic is taken from XP, as vista still is slightly buggy.
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i was the 5th poster on here and i just have one more thing to say
personally, i think ff9 or X was the best, but im sure most of you will say 7 was.
my point? it came on 4 discs, but did that make it any less fun? do you regret having to spend 45 seconds of your life switching the discs every 15 hours? so if a handful of games require 2 discs at the most, it really wont be too bad
and still, thats IF they do
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lmfao winDOWS vISTA IS NOT gonna take up a terabyte.NO one really has a terabyte on there systems today.Problity the same noob who posted first said this.
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every single number used in the first post was pull out of the guys ass.
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FORGET WHAT THEY GROW ON ANVERAGE, what really matters(regardi ng storage space) is the really huge Triple-A games.
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More storage size is good but I feel it will just be wasted on longer pre-rendered movies.
Game play wise I reckon DVD9 will be just fine -- check out Gears of War.
With high res visual games like that, you simply can't write off DVD9 (plus the in game looks wicked and runs just fine).
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Multi-disk games are fine for linier games, but what about free-roaming games?
How are you supposed to switch disks in GTA4 or Elder Scrolls 5? Those games will take up more space than there privious installments, and because there free-roaming theres no place to switch disks.
So id say the Xbox360 is limiting the content in next-gen free-roaming games.
-Ash-
ps: noone said Vista will take up 1TB(except for maybe one noob in the middle), we said Vista siggests you have 1TB.
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That 94kb FPS that was released a while ago that everyone likes to reference, is one of the worst examples to use
Its compression and MAchine code make it run like crap compared to the system it is on, the same way it would on the XBox 360, It would be a 333-700mhz game, But instead it takes a 2.4 ghz processor and a Decent to good video card to chug along, and you need a really good video card to play it properly.
Yes it can look good, but its very short, and takes forever to decompress and run.
Textures will be downsized / reused to save space, and bland textures was the entire Morrowind game..
Ugh it was soo bland it was painful to watch.
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AS far back as I can remember game disks have been doubling in size as each generation progresses.
the snes started off with 4 megs and then they couldnt fit the games on so they started making bigger cartridges.
then the playstation came and saturn came along and it was all on CD( except for the N64 which was a failure compared to the snes because there were no cut scenes or anything...infact many people see nintendos failure to adopt cd as the pivotal reason they arent top of the console market anymore)...next came the ps2 and Xbox and we had DVD ...so coem the next generation we see sony is moving on but microsoft isnt.
History shows that storage plays a huge factor in games...the ps3 was only a 32 bit macjine but the n64 was a 64 bit and some of its games were stunning for the time but the limited storage they had killed them. im not saying this will happen with the 360 but desingers definately will be limited in what they can achieve...this system has to last for 4 years and towards the 3rd and fourth years it'll be trailing behind the ps3 solely on the fact that it has a lot less storage
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To Anonymous, at 2:26 AM
You say you don't NEED 35GB.
but we also DON'T need dvds if we compress it to Divx and Xvids.
The problem is that the chips that will decompress the datas and put it onto your TV will need to be damned powerful if you want to play the compressed videos.
720p means NOTHING. you can make 720p games with blocky characters and **** graphics. That is just a marketing scheme to drag more INVESTORS in.
What it also does is like when innovative games like katamari damacy is thought out of by one poor person, and since it does not meet the Microsoft quality criteria, it's not going to be published, not because it's a **** game, but because the developer doesn't have enough money.
What are you on about high res textures.
From what I know, PC games have separate textures for differing res so it doesn't take time to uncompress, dupe, and cache it. in contrary, F.E.A.R made me very pissed when it forced me to wait for 5 minutes or something just to change res.
You keep on talking about compressions but that's what makes all the games to load for so long. Don't you just wish it was gone? it doesn't even help you much at all.
I'd rather change a disc in matter of seconds and have a near loadingless gameplay, than to wait for 30 secs everytime you encounter the next checkpoint. it just breaks the momentum in my opinion.
I think you're only looking at the technical point of the fact. Techs only help the experience, it's not an experience by itself.
And tell me, can your PS or GC players name 5 games(or franchises) that they totally wish to play but can't because they are only on Xbox?
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Bill Gates: "640K ought to be enough for anybody."
Guess 9GB will enough for everybody.
Ever wondered why there weren't any Final Fantasy Style RPGs on the XBOX? The XBOX apparently doesn't support multi disc games. Storage space already hurt the original XBOX. It will hurt the XBOX360 as the overall visual quality of the games will probably be lower. It will take a lot of effort, and thus development costs to reduce the size of a game to make it fit in a DVD9.
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I don't know why people thinks compression is such a good thing. In video and sound, compression is a bad thing. Sure I can compress a 9 gigabyte DVD into a 700mb S-Vcd but at a major hit to sound and video quality. The more uncompressed a track is, the better quality it will be, everyone knows that. Also, higher compression rates will require a longer buffer rate to play back the content, thus resulting in a higher loading time.
I also noted that several poster here said that spanning across multiple disc would not be a problem. Well, it would be if you had to change discs in a fighting, racing, sports, or other multiplayer game. I doubt that Soul Calibur 3 on Dreamcast using like 3 disc to play would be very useful.
Most of the posts here are valid, 9gb is enough but only for current generation games. REAL Next Gen gaming will require tons more space and is beyond Xbox 360's DVD-9 capabilities. Dreamcast also used compression on their GD-roms but it was still not enough. This was Dreamcasts faults and is Microsofts as well.
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well, i know this is going to sound like a stupid fanboy comment, and believe me im not, ill be getting a ps3 so long as they arent too expensive... but as one of the biggest corporations in the world, im sure they know something we dont. sure they might be trying to make a quick buck by ripping off all their consumers now, but that would hurt them in the long run... not just on this system but no one would want to buy their next one. and if what everyone says about them losing money off consoles and making it off games is true, i doubt this is the case. i trust that with all their resources, they know what they are doing... and i dont think constantly ripping people off got them to where they are today. and anyone who says it is is probably using something microsoft right now
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ok, guys, i know some of you wonder what kind of compression the 360 has, well the ratio is of 2:1 so that mean that a dvd9 dvd will hold 18gigs of information compressed to 9, so i don´t think that there would be more than 10 games in the entire generation to use 2 disc and i highly doubt there would be a game this gen that would require 3 discs, that would mean the true weight of that game will be 27 gigas..... i don´t think we will see a game like that in this generation and if we do, it will be at the last year of the generation, 4-5 years from now.....so c`mon..
and about the loss of quality, yes compression lose quality WHEN you are compressing something to another format and that will happen with a un refined not specific software...this is MICROSOFT same format compression designed to NOT lose quality and managed on the FLY by one of the cores... so no, there will be no loss of quality and if there it is, i something like 1% to 3% thing....
How it is possible to do that and why would the 360 will require less space than ps3, easy to answer the ps3 as the ps2 loads all as there it is... there is not only not gonna be compression, there is no gonna be generated textures completely by the machine. all the information is on the disk already.. that is why the storage needed to that aproach will be the double to the 360. the ps2 was like that, it has always been like that with sony hardware, in xbox hardware every single xbox version of a multiconsole weights less that the ps2 and still looked better than ps2 version.
the xbox generated the texture in base to parameters, and threads of code that had all the information how the engine should generate the textures, etc. guess what? 360 does the same a bigger scale.... and the ps3 does the same in its aproach...END OF STORY.
i hope this was informative...
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"ok, guys, i know some of you wonder what kind of compression the 360 has, well the ratio is of 2:1 so that mean that a dvd9 dvd will hold 18gigs of information compressed to 9"
Bollocks!! Where did you get that information from? Or did you just make it up? I am not saying the 360 can't do that just seems a random stat to pull out of the air. Either way, surely if a 9gig game would actaully be 18gig if uncompressed means that games are nearly outgrowing DVD9, as games get bigger, and use more HD content, compression will incur greater overheads on the processor.
I think it is very likely that Microsoft will eventually have to use a HD-DVD drive for games content. It will probably be a few years down the line, when the technology will be a lot cheaper, and people have forgotten how much they have already had to pay out on the system. I don't blame Microsoft for going for an early release with DVD9 only, because the early release is the only way they will be able to get an advantage over Sony. Microsoft has a history of going to market early, to get a competitive advantage, and then releasing updates once it figures out weaknesses in the product.
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To Mike.
if they make 3 disc Fighting or racing or other genred games and force you to change discs, that's the developer's problem. They're the ones not being able to adapt to the hardware.
I would personally force you to use disc 2 for multiplayer and disc 1 for single player and etc. or disc 1,2 for single and 2 for multi.
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I think you all forgot why xbox games could be much smaller. Because of the hard drive. The xbox could compress files and decompress them onto the hard drive. Thats one of the reasons for long load times.
The xbox360 doesnt have this luxury thanks to the hard drive unit being removable. And as far as graphic quality goes, it hasnt improved much since the xbox. My PC with my technical specs is way sub-par to the xbox360 yet the xbox360 ports look much much worse then my pc. Call of Duty for example. the textures look horrible on the xbox360 but they are very very fine and detailed on the pc versions. The models look horrible on the xbox360 but they are much more detailed on the PC.
COD2 isnt that large of a game. less then 2gb install i think. Yet the xbox360 with its ability to produce graphics beyond my pc has generated substandard graphics in comparison to PCs. the 360 has no reason not to be able to output the same quality graphics as a mid-end PC. Its got the processing power, the RAM and a beast of a video card.
So the conclusion is that something is limiting the xbox360 and so far it narrows down to whats on the game disk. If a game is small you can expect the graphics quality to be sub-par.
The games may output graphics at in hi-def but from the visuals i have seen on the xbox360, they look like they are rendered in a lower resolution and upscaled to hi-def resolution. The same effect would be to use a low resolution photo like a jpg and zoom to fill the screen.
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The higher the quality of graphics the more space it will need and thats a fact. You cant disprove this and it works with audio as well, the higher the quality of audio the larger the file. WAV files are indeed much better in quality compared to MP3 but in size WAV is much much larger.
Compare the textures of just 1 year ago and you will see they have trippled in size. Models have gotten comparably larger as well.
HL2 for example, its over 2gb in size and all the models and textures are compressed in files and decompressed and extracted when they are needed.
Doom has a install of around 1.5gb and if you decompress the textures, models, sounds, etc. you get a much much faster load time because they wont have to be extracted on demand. But then the install gets around 5GB.
Console games have been lacking because the quality of the models, sound, textures and everything is rendered/processed at a lower quality.
Take a divx for example. have you noticed how almost all divx movies have been around 700mbs? well if you dont see the similarity its because thats the size of cd-rs. I record my divx movies to 1gb because the quality is much better. the extra 300mbs makes a difference that anyone can see. Just like an mp3 at 92kbps doesnt sound as good as one encoded at 128kbps and 192kbps is noticably better then 128.
They can release games under the dvd5 size but it wont push the xbox360 to its potential until games have high quality models, textures and sounds. and then we will start seeing games reaching or breaching the dvd9 barrier.
One advantage sony has with the ps3 is that they can combine game demos with movies. do you guys realize how much advertising that will be? imagine popping in a movie and having the option to play game demos before or after the movie the psp already has this feature so i know the ps3 will as well.
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In response to kura,
If this is the case, then we might as well have Soul Calibur 3 on 3 CDs then. How much fun would that be. Additionally to the last few comments, why would you want a new game system that compares to a mid-end pc? You might as well spend the $500 on your pc and make it a high-end one. Xbox360 is a mediocre system at best. The purpose of a next gen system is that it will surpase any current gaming system including pc. If can't even do that it's not nextgen.
Sure, 360 may be a nice xbox 1.5, but it certainly is not nextgen. So you people say that its the gamedevelopers fault for making a fighting game 3 disc huh? So you trying to say dreamcast would be able to fit the 3gig image of soulcal3 on a 900mb gdrom? I think not.
True nextgen requires more space regardless of compression and all this other crap people keep talking about. Global Illumination and Ray Tracing will require more space than standard games and thus is the future. XBox360 may be nice now, but it will eventually die out dreamcast style.
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