X360's New 1080p Support Crippled? |
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With the confusion of the next-generation of gaming, it's easy to see why most people just don't bother updating their TV sets to HD. If you don't know the difference between 720p and 1080i then why spend your life's savings on a TV or LCD screen when you don't know what does, but hopefully by the end of this article you should have a better understanding of different HD formats, and why some people believe that the Xbox 360's New 1080p Support system is flawed.At this year's Tokyo Game Show, Microsoft announced that they would be adding 1080p support in Xbox 360 games and movies, upgrading their latest console to support what is currently the highest grade of High-Definition resolution available. The part of HD which most people know about is the HDMI cable, basically yet another wire that connects a console and the TV. It has the ability to send both audio and video signals in a digital format, something that other cables previously haven't been able to accomplish. Due to this, it is able to support HDCP / AACS, a new copy-protection technology that will some day be required for playback of Blu-ray/HD-DVD at full resolution, hence why Sony have added HDMI support for their next-generation PS3 consoles.
This is where Microsoft seem to have let us down. As the Xbox 360 doesn't have HDMI support you may not be able to playback copyrighted HD-DVD's at full resolution, as only a limited number of 1080p-capable HDTVs can accept the HDCP / AACS signals through analog inputs. HDMI is the standard for HD TVs and for that reason most TV manufacturers have built 1080p HDTVs that are only able to accept the high-resolution 1080p via HDMI cable. Very few 1080p HDTVs will accept an analog 1080p signal via VGA, but this usually requires the use of a VGA-to-DVI dongle - making 1080p without HDMI very difficult to achieve.
An interview with Microsoft on how they plan to have 1080p support for all games without HDMI support turned out inconclusive, with IGN still waiting for a proper response from Microsoft. Sure, the Xbox 360 will support 1080p games, but due to the lack of the HDMI cable most 1080p HDTVs won't display the signal - possibly ending in disaster for 360 owners who have purchased HDTVs without analog 1080p signal support. Lets hope Microsoft pulls something out of the bag in order to sort this mess out soon.
Via IGN
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Comments [refresh]
so this whole issue is about copyright protection?
these things are getting way to pricey to be screwing with us...
why should i pay more to stop piracy if all they'll do is charge me more anyways?
The issue is that Microsoft claims they can output 1080p. In reality they can't.
No, the whole issue is about having TVs that can actually accept a 1080p signal via component. The whole issue around HDMI is the DRM key used to combat piracy.
I said this before, and ill say it again. 720p is pleanty, and the difference between 720p, and 1080p is really marginal. its not like the jump between 480i (Standard def) and 720p. (Heh, now ill get called a fanboy..haha)
Now the one thing im wondering though is that MS said the 360 would only be 1080i at first. And now we have this update to 1080p. I wouldnt be supprised if this was all a marketing stategy by MS. Who knows for certain that the released specs were everything the x360 had? What if they have in the works an HDMI cable addon? What if the x360 had HDMI capabilities left under wraps becasue the software wasnt finished for launch? Its all hersay i know. But it seriously wouldnt suprise me.
I have a xbox 360 and they cannot output a true 1080p signal, you can acheive it through vga connection which my HD DLP Samsung has, but quite frankly i used it and think component is alot better overall picture (at least on my set). Anyway to get to the point I dont see the big deal. Once again most games are going to be developed and optimized at 720p. 1080p is just too much for most consoles to push out. I know sony is doing it with a few select titles, but let me emphasize "few". We'll have to wait and see if they actually get it done and if so what the frame rates are. Personally I'll be just fine with my 720p which most xbox 360 and PS3 games will be developed for.
The X360 will be able to output 1080p, they is really no argument in that. The issue is what TVs can input 1080p via component becasue most manufactuers just accept 1080p via HDMI. Component can carry a 1080p signal.
Also if you are buying an HD tv just for your 360 then you should be getting one that accepts component....obviously otherwise you have no other way to hook it up.....and even is this AAS or whatever it is called is implemented right away (which they beleive it won't be until like 2010), it does not effect the games what so ever....
1080p through upscaling
It does affect the games because if you try to output native 1080p, the rescriction will downscale it to 540i.
the 360 can output 1080p and tvs can except 1080p signals in component. All games can be played in 1080p on any hd tv. The issue is the movies with copy protection. HDCP requires hdmi so hd-dvds with the copy protection will be downscaled. 5 out of 6 hd-dvd companies have said they will not use this protection while one is undecided. It really is a dead issue. HDMI is not required for 1080p games and i probably isnt for 1080p movies either.
"I have a xbox 360 and they cannot output a true 1080p signal"
Its in the Autumn update.
You wont see the difference between 1080p and 720p on a HDTV with a screen size lower than 50".
hahaha suck ***** xbox150 fanboys. the 150 without hdmi by M$ is another reason why the xbox was a rushed console.
hahahahha
PS3 FTW!!!
how very mature. Getting a little worried about your lack of exclusive titles why the 360 is running away with erm well all of them apart from sonys mass amount of sequals??
Dont get me wrong the ps3 is a powerful console, i think it needs to back it up with some games though i think. Its called a games console afterall.
can someone give the above poster a straight jacket?
11 really is a sad person lol. Omg I hope kellogs puts post out of buisness
sorry i meant a straight jacket for 11, what does FTW mean anyway?
for the win.
I don't know if it's possible, but if they could simply make a HDMI cable, problem solved. They would need to have the copy protection bulls*it built into the cable, but the XBOX itself has all the right pin outs built in. It might cost $60 or more, but if Microsoft made the announcment, I would think they have a plan other than buy a new TV.
whats the difference between 1080i and p anyway. i know that it stands for progressive and interlaced, but is there really a visual difference?
for the win? that makes sense. my best guess for what it meant was f**k the world
Interlaced means its really only showing half the lines on the screen as the number, so 1080i = 540 lines at once,... half the resolution of 1080p and also lower than 720p
people who say 1080i > 720p are completely moronic and need to go back to Devry to get their computer degree.
The End
The difference between interlaced and progressive scan is how the horizontal lines are drawn on the screen. Interlaced skips every other row on one frame, then draws the skipped lines on the next frame. Progressive scan draws all the lines in order. The difference is a slight flicker in interlaced, but it is really only noticable on low resolution like 480i. The difference between 1080i and 1080p would be hard to see unless you have a big screen, even then it wouldn't make much difference.
MS said if hdmi was needed due to copy protection they would release a hdmi cable, until that day they say its not needed. And they are correct.
One thing to make clear. You wont find any "new" or "recently old" TVs that accept 1080 through component.
Whats the difference between 720p and 1080p. Very very big.
720p is like 1280x768
1080p is like 1600x1200
The problem with 1080p is its sharp, extremely sharp. SO the bigger the display the better. 720p had its advantages. Obviously its not gonna be leaps and bounds difference, but then again you dont notice the difference between a 4megapixel image and a 8megapixel image.
Why? Because you dont have a display large enough to show it in its native size.
So yes, 1080p is for people who have huge screens. I have 100", so 1080p is something I will need to take full advantage of my display.
Those of you who think you can buy any 1080p tv and get 1080 through analog connections are misled. There hasnt been a 1080p component or VGA TV in a reasonable price range ever. They are alot more expensive then TVs with HDMI 1080p inputs.
Also nearly all TVs that do support 1080p signals through analog connection are force to have it downgraded to 1080i before it goes through the TVs processing.
Analog 1080p processing units were considered not to be profitable. Because at the time DVI was being included in TVs. HDMI was designed from DVI. The only real difference is that HDMI also has audio singals. Few companys, very few, ever released a chip that could process a 1080p signal through component. So thats why they are expensive and you wont find them in retail stores because there isnt a demand for them.
Thats why when TVs say they can accept 1080p through component, what it really does is downconvert the signal to 1080i and then upconverts it again to 1080p. makes no sense does it. But then again remember back in 2005 when TVs upscaled all signals to 1080p but didnt accept any 1080p signals? This is the same thing happening. You can check all the reviews for 1080p TVs. You only get "true" 1080 images from a HDMI signal. Analog signals are forced to be converted to 1080i then upscaled to 1080p again.
I think it's physically impossible
I was tempted to stop reading when you said the 1080p resolution lol.
Its 1920 × 1080.
Also ive never heard of this downscaling the video then interlacing it. Im pretty sure all the tvs ive seen run in 1080p with any connection. Wether you connect it through vga, dvi, hdmi, component. Also if it didnt work in 1080p threw component which im sure it does. Whats the big problem with vga to dvi converters. I mean they are really cheap. Most tvs that come with hdmi have dvi aswell or vga. I find people just try to find faults. Do you think MS just twidle thier thumbs and go right lets upgrade our console knowing that most hd tvs user wont be able to use it. I really doubt it.
"And they will be able to do that how?
I think it's physically impossible"
Ya I also think, the xbox can't achieve 1080P, and upscaling it will only make things worse.
good to see sony and microsoft duking it out over 1% of th epeople out there.good luck to them on that.
should someone tell them that video games haven't hit it that big yet where people alter thier living room just to play a game at a higher resolution.
by the time this stuff is standard we'll be moving on to the xbox3 and playstation4.
Calm down people.... They'll probably announce a stupid HDMI cable soon.
720p is 1280x720
1080p is 1920x1080
LISTEN UP YOU ASS RAMMING NEGROS!!!!!!! THERE IS NO VISUAL DIFFERENCE BETWEEN 1080i AND 1080P SO ***** OFF!!!!
"Interlaced means its really only showing half the lines on the screen as the number, so 1080i = 540 lines at once,... half the resolution of 1080p and also lower than 720p
people who say 1080i > 720p are completely moronic and need to go back to Devry to get their computer degree.
The End"
1080i is NOT lower 720p. The full picture is still 1080 lines when it is assembled. All 1080p does is show all 1080 lines in one pass instead of two in a very miniscule amount of time.
Most new HDTVs convert interlaced signals to progressive anyway (LCD's and Plasmas ONLY display progressive signals). It's not quite as "perfect" as direct 1080p, but it's doubtful most people would notice.
I use 1080i everyday, and I don't see a problem with it. When I use 720p, the detail is slightly lower, and I mean SLIGHTLY, so I just stick with 1080i since it doesn't give me any grief. But that's on a 51". On a 27" TV, the difference isn't noticeable at all.
I'm still confused. ***** this 720/1080 crap. Just focus on making good games god damnit.
haha people should realise that even with HDMI, the xbox150 does not have a HCPI chip that is required for HD-DVD movies to output at 1080p. So whats the point of the HD-DVD addon again? hahaha
xbox150 games are not made natively for 1080p aswell unlike ps3, and upscaling is just *****. haha
PS3 FTW!!!
face it. xbox150 is current gen, and the fanboys are starting to cry. hahaha
PS3 FTW!!
Everyone seem to be forgetting about 360s USB ports.
Pics of the "HD" Add on player show 2 USB ports..
Hypothetically.. one could develop an "add-on" (read: more M$ dollars) that would power an HDMI output To a True High Definiton source.. eg. A TV with HDMI input and 1080p native resolution. Their stance from launch day was 'let the gamer choose their own experience" Every move since then has been true to that.
Reality is that the xbox is here now and has been here for a year.
PLaystation 3 will be nice and i'm sure sony is try they're hardest to do it right , just 1 year to late.
Look at what's happen in the pc market in 1 year you gotta espect it to be slightly better than the xbox if not sony is going to flop big time this time.
BAck to hdmi , would you really think that MS is going to release a 1080p hd dvd drive that cannot play hd dvds at 1080p? come on this was discussed many months ago... it will work and most probably it will have a usb2 to hdmi cable that will be released just a few days before the ps3 launch
I was comparing the HD to PC resolution
720p is 1280x720
and its very much similair in comparison to 1280x768
and 1080p is 1920 x 1080
and its very much the same as 1600x1200
If anyone misread that then that was my mistake for not making that clear. I assumed anyone with computer knowledge would know that it was a comparison, not the resolution of the HD signal.
yeh xbox150 is here now but unfortunately it was released 1 year too early evident by the numerous amount of bugs, little thought on future compatibility (no hdmi), and little to non existent backwards compatibility.
only reason M$ rushed their release was because they believed sony would release their console last spring.
PS3 FTW!!!
By the time HDMI becomes widely accepted, consoles will be in their next generation. Saying XBox360 is current gen is completely right. Why the ***** would you want a console that costs $600 because it uses technology that nobody needs right now? Any decent television is going to be able to de-interlace 1080i, anytime you watch non-HD tv or any signal with an "i" in the spec name, your tv is de-interlacing it.
your comparison is still not right.. you are comparing two widescreen resolutions (720p and 1280x768) to a widescreen and a 4x3 res (1080p and 1600x1200) maybe you mean 1024x768 or 1280x1024? anyways.. this topic is kid of rediculous since nobody but MS knows what's going to happen. speculation wars are pointless imo.
You are wrong. Interlaced signals suck. They show flicker and harsh edges, its lower resolution than 720p. Very obvious and you are stupidest kid on the block for trying to say 1080i is better than 720p
1080i = 540 lines at once! 720>540.... do the math you moron.
"1080i = 540 lines at once! 720>540.... do the math you moron."
Don't call people a moron unless you know what you're taking about.
1080p and 1080i are the SAME resoultion. The difference is that when both are updated at 60 fields per second, 1080i shows the even lines for 1/60th of a second, and then the odd lines for the next 1/60th of a second, and so on. That means it takes 1/30th of a second to show the full image, resulting in 30fps max. 1080p shows ALL the scan lines in 1/60th of a second, result in 60fps max. Hence for 1080i, you see the SAME resolution but only half the lines at a time.
On old TVs and monitors, this type of interlacing resulted in noticeable flickering on the screen. However, a modern 1080p TV with good deinterlacing will combine both the odd and even lines BEFORE displaying the final image on the screen, resulting in a solid 1080p image, but still limited to 30fps. Hence 1080i on such a TV will look just as good as 1080p at 30fps.
1080p beats 1080i for framerates above 30fps, hence you can have 1080p at 60fps.
true its only 540 lines at once, but it DOES display all 1080 lines within 1/30 of a second, which can be fast enough to trick the eye into seeing a higher res image. just like if you are viewing a video on your computer at NTSC resolution, its going to look much better than a 320x240 video, even though NTSC has only 240 lines at once.
>"One thing to make clear. You wont find any "new" or "recently old" TVs that accept 1080 through component."
Question. Did you raise this issue at all when for 4 months (since E3) we heard that the 20GB PS3 will be not have HDMI afterall and therefore will also offer 1080p through component? Or has this only become an issue for you now that both PS3 models have HDMI?
It's interesting because prior to E3, it was all about HDMI and how much it mattered. Then after it was announced that the cheaper PS3 will not have HDMI, suddenly it was all about how it doesn't really matter and wasn't really a problem. Now that HDMI is back in, suddenly it's all change again.
Hmmm.
you said,
"Dont get me wrong the ps3 is a powerful console, i think it needs to back it up with some games though i think."
eyah.....idiot... cuzz MS has soo much hit titles out...and sony relying on sequel.... are u kidding me....DUH!!!
The ONLY reason and i say ONLY reason X360 is alive and XBOX for that matter...is HALO...that's it....if Halo was multi console...or just sony and ms...we would have seen xbox being the next dream cast .... heh!..i only bought XBOX cuzz i can play HALO...and HALO 2 (since halo 2 is out for vista and i don wanna wait or buy vista) and Media centre mod....cuzz i can play N64 and old console games....man ...xbox is like PSP (at the moment) ppl buy it cuzz of the mod...thats it....
so stop bashing ps3 saying it's all sequel...when ms is living ON sequel...and sony DOES have original games...Resistance...Motorstorm...Genji...White Knight...and more coming....so STFU....k?...peace.
1080i sucks since you can only get 540 lines at once. Saying that 1/60 is one field and 1/60 is completely pointless.... 720p you can get 720 lines at once at full 60fps... hmmmm which one is better...
Saying that your eye is tricked is a bunch of nonsense, are you trying to say that what your really get out of 1080i is ~ a 60fps 540p signal?... (stupid) look at 720p and 1080i content and you will find out which one looks crisper. Its the progressive one! Tada you graduated moron school.
Forget all your stupid theories and tell me this... Is your xbox 360 hooked up for 720p or 1080i...... or simply which one you think is better.
720p FTW
The End
Trust me, it CAN'T.
That's why I said it's PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE.
idiots
Not you again.. and i asked you last time why NEGROS.. Were not the only ones that ASS RAM...
lol poor guy .. i think he needs his meds... Can you imaging Trolling the Xbox Forumns and seeing all these great news about Xbox 360 stuff and how exciting it is and see how cool it is and will be and have nothing to compare on the PS3 side, except bad news. Man i feel for you. If any thing i will og say some prayers for you, concidering you waited a year for your console, i have had a year of Gaming in HD.. Sweet have fun.
Ok, first we have the fanboys bashing. Then all this talk about 1080i vs 1080p.
Well first i recomend all of you to do some homework. Register @ AVS forums and read.
Start here
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=675595
Now anyone who thinks an interlaced signal looks as good as a progessive signal is smoking some really good #$#, or they dont have a true 1080p TV. A progressive signal is supperior to a interlaced, period. Less prone to noise, more vibrant colours etc. There is really no arguement here. Saying there is no difference is rubbish. Just compare 480i and 480p. There is a night a day difference. Most videophiles also perfer 720p over 1080i.
And everyone sayiong content will only be up converted is wrong. There are titles confermed to be NATIVE 1080P. Its the exact same on the PS3 front. Some title are only 720p and some are 1080p.
And last.
If call someone a xbot, or call it the xbox 150. Your not helping your argument. This makes you look like a stupid fanboy (Which all fanboys are BTW) that has saved of every penny he has just to buy a stupid console. Noone here cares, becasue in the adult world, $600 is peanuts. I have a 360, and i also have a Wii on preorder, and ill be getting a PS3 after the launch ;Didnt preorder in time, and they cant garantee it, :(
And again ill say, MS dropped 1080P on us, when they said it would never happen. I wonder what else they have in store.
And all you flamers, Grow up. OH the PS3 is better, OH the 360s better. Man you people are sad.
The DRM key in HDMI is being implemented by MOVIE STUDIOS, and many of them have confermed that they will not be using it, or at least in the near future. There has been no talk by game companies if they will be implementing it. And why would they, the DRM was introduced to stop movie piracy and has no benifit to game developers.
You cannot "downscale" then "upscale" from/to 1080i/p, they use they same resources but display them differently....
It's not physically impossible because it is a software restriction, and was just not included....this is like saying the psp was rediculously incomplete because of the updates for it.
AND the copyright restriction on HDMI IS only for movies and not games...and only possibly for movies at this point.....
I'm at work at present, so I'll respond to some of the posts here MUCH later. :)
(Trying not to let my boss see me typing this)
...on a TV with good deintelacing.
I'll respond to some of the posts here MUCH later
(I'm at work and trying not to let my boss see me on this website ;)).
If you want 1080p:
BUY A PLAYSTATION 3!!!!
HA HA HA HAH!
>"Now anyone who thinks an interlaced signal looks as good as a progessive signal is smoking some really good #$#, or they dont have a true 1080p TV."
Really, then may I suggest you go away and read up on deinterlacing and then come back when (or should I say if) you understand it.
You say compare 480i to 480p, I would ask which TV were you comparing the two on. Given the resolution, I would guest it's the kind I mentioned in #42, i.e. an old TV with NO specialize hardware to deinterlace the signal.
Oh and, the following makes good reading too;
1080i v. 1080p:
http://blog.hometheatermag.com/geoffreymorrison/0807061080iv1080p/
I am good with my 48" 1080i
That's all i need...it still looks hella good! More than enough for me!