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Bailing out? Microsoft Xbox Executive sells company stock as red ring problem continues

Posted Jul 12, 2007 at 5:27AM EST by QJ Staff

Listed in: Xbox 360 Tags: Microsoft, Robbie Bach
Ó

Red Ring of Death - Image 1 


It could be a sign, or it could just be a badly-timed business call - but it's definitely disconcerting, as researchers and analysts have just uncovered the fact that Microsoft Xbox Executive Robbie Bach has sold US$ 6.2 million worth of company stock at around the same time the red ring problem really went overboard. If you remember, it was also at this time that Microsoft put into motion their plan to take care of those red rings, with the company taking the inevitable brunt of it.

While this may seem cause for worry, it certainly doesn't look like it. For one, a review with the Securities and Exchanges Commission reveal that Robbie Back sold that much shares in the time period that began on May 2 and ended at the point where Microsoft announced the plan to take better care of those red-ringed consoles. So that means it's not one of those impulse sales where the shareholder dramatically calls up his or her broker and says somberly: "Sell everything." No, it was gradual.

Another thing that points to the latter is that Microsoft's shares neither rose or fell significantly after the announcement - in fact, it barely moved at all. And with the company's spokesman himself, Eric Hollreiser, saying that Robbie Bach's trading is in no way related to the announcement and that he (Robbie) still has a large stake in the company and confident about Microsoft's success, there's probably no real need to worry.

For those of us still jittery about this bit of news, though, here's Ben Silverman, director of Indie Research, to tell us about the ways of a high-stakes shareholder:


It doesn't necessarily mean [insiders] think that there will be a bad event; it could just be financial planning. But sometimes it just looks bad that an insider has sold stock. I'd give [Bach] the benefit of the doubt here, especially because the stock didn't move very much.


Well, there you have it. And it's not really a bad thing, Microsoft taking care of their customers at their own cost - it just goes to show that they want their customers to get the best service, right? Updates as we get them, and you can read the entire article with all the data on the read link below.

Thanks to Quixand for the tip!



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Comments 


 
# lolGuest 2007-07-12 07:34
This is the beginning of the end, for MS. POr at least to me it is.

Anyone care to elaborate.

Reply
 

 
# its like everything from microsoftGuest 2007-07-12 08:12
i just trade my xbox 360 with 19 games for a ps3 with 3 games ... im verry happy .. i think that's a *****ing nice move... just in time....!

Reply
 

 
# are you serious?Guest 2007-07-12 08:32
you are willing to trade in your 360 and 19 games for a ps3? what a waste. i havent used my ps3 in 6 months, absolutely no games for it.

Reply
 

 
# 5Guest 2007-07-12 08:40
well it's all in the taste of games.i would get a 360 if it had the games i wanted(and lasted a bit longer)

so yeah....it's just what your looking for in games

Reply
 

 
# NyahGuest 2007-07-12 10:10
This is a 360fanboys words... in the first place..why did you buy ps3 for if you dont have any game to play!? Normal people buy console for the upcoming games...so in conclusion...you don´t own a ps3 you´re just bashing it. Oh, and about the post. Xbox360 owners must be worry about this news why would someone sell they´re stock? i know that if its going profitable then you buy more stocks.... but why sell them? :S (you know the answer). Sorry about my english in advance im learning english >___

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# uhm.. there is no conspiracyGuest 2007-07-12 11:37
i don't see his name up there. stop talking crazy.



also, doesnt microsofts ***** get pruny since its been in your mouth for so long?

Reply
 

 
# PSNGuest 2007-07-12 11:53
There is a reason to get a PS3 even if you do not want to buy a game. You can download games from PSN if you do not want to spend for a disc. Or some people bought a PS3 in advance so the security holes will still be in their system. Just like the PSP.

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# pfff is on crack, quixand has "sony psycosis"Guest 2007-07-12 12:10
Would it be possible to buy stock if nobody sold it you f*cking moron? It is normal everyday business practice. This was not even sold all at once, but over a period of time. It isn't a sign of distress unless a large amount of the company is being sold. This did not even affect the stock price.



Quixand is a well known PS3 fantard and is looking for ammo to bash the 360. Just an amateur really. He doesn't have the skills to compete.



"Normal people buy console for the upcoming games..."



I guess I'm not normal according to you. So you're going to buy a PS3, but don't care about getting any games for it when you get it or even in the next couple months? You're just hoping you're going to like them? The PS3 barely has 19 games. Let me guess what games you got, uhh Resistance, Motorstorm, and Ninja Gaiden Sigma. Of course I'm right, the rest are XBOX 360 ports that were watered down and came out 2 years later on PS3.

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# FAILED!!Guest 2007-07-12 13:05
@Hellraiser



lmao u fail on everthing u just said, this article was never written by Quixand... if ur retard ass read the article below Quixand name then u would know that CNN posted it and DowJones wrote it. Why would u compare ur so called next gen console that is unstabble and doesnt have a good reputation to even called a gaming console on a new release machine that can match a pc on every way, i agree ps3 doesnt have THE games that will totally kill ur piece of crap machine but its too early to speculate cuz once the games for ps3 comes out... you would be crying on ur bed saying that y didnt i get ps3 when i had a chance.

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# seriouslyGuest 2007-07-12 13:15
This article skews the truth a little bit. Go read the REAL articles and not a horrible version of the sum up.



-Robbie sold the stock months ago

-Robbie still holds A TON of stock, he just sold SOME of it. Maybe he just wanted to buy some stuff with it?



Cmon people, the "real news" sites mention that it commonly happens that a sell of stock comes at a bad timing, it doesn't necessarily mean ANYTHING.



If you don't understand these concepts, just leave, we have enough children commenting as it is.

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# WDF?!?!?!Guest 2007-07-12 13:27
if u think were child then ur one of us then, where the fck did u read ur own article... can u put a link and not just give ur own article and tell us "read the REAL new/article." be an adult and quit being a infant. just out of curiosity, do u guys even believe everthing about the news, me i wont believe it until i see it just like i dont believe Santa cuz i havent seen his daym face.

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# is it my faultQuixand 2007-07-12 13:46
that i read the business news and not just stick to gaming sites??



i'm out to destroy Microsoft??? i didn't come up with the story... i read it and just passed it on... same thing as "hey did you hear about the robbery last night?"...



it's just passing on news... i didn't make up stuff or start a bad rumor... it's on fu*cking CNN for crying out loud!

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# hahahaQuixand 2007-07-12 13:54
Hellraiser i had a hand in putting an article on the web which people could google... i've had several already, ask QJ if you want... can't be less than 10 over the last couple of months...



none of them are pro Microsoft... and you know how gullible some people on the internet are... but don't worry i'll try to brush up on my skills.

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# HmmmmGuest 2007-07-12 14:46
I don't recall Xbox fans saying it's the end for Sony when Kenny stepped down, why are PS fans in here saying MS is finished over this? Robby just needed some extra money and since MS shares never go up he figured why wait for something that isn't going to happen, so he unloaded them.

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# @QuixandGuest 2007-07-12 14:52
Ye but you wouldnt have told qj about this article if it was about sony instead of MS.



I can just picture you now lounged at home fat and spotty stuffing ur face with a pack of cheetos endlessly searching the internet for all MS's flaws to spread around sites like qj so you can make ur ps3 seem a worth while purchase.



Why the hell are all u sony fantards here anyway this article wasnt in the ps3 section unless all these people are just Quixand on his xbox hate campaign

Reply
 

 
# Benny BoyQuixand 2007-07-12 15:57
is it my fault that there isn't any positive XBox news lately... except maybe that news about Madden (wow!!! i better get an xbox!!)... not my fault the XBox is a cheap product that's why it has all these negative press.



only bads news for Sony are the sales figures and that's old news...



oh and just to let you know when Nintendo zipped passed Sony in Japan (stock wise) i sent that in too.



as for your image of myself... i sure wish i was fatter and damn you made me crave for some cheetos right there.



as for ur precious XBox section... how many times do i have to explain that all the articles are on qj.net whether it's wii, ps3 or xbox... i even get nightly emails from qj with a summary of all articles for that day.



but you wouldn't know that would you??? now you know so next time try not to look so stupid ok benny boy?

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# all 360s defective?Guest 2007-07-12 16:30
http://www.crn.com.au/story.aspx?CIID=85600&src=site-marq

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# ...Guest 2007-07-12 16:49
i havea ps3 and a 360 and for the games the 360 just rapes ps3, though ps3 will come out on top in the end. ps3 has everything but games, the games it has so far are for ppl with an unusual taste

Reply
 

 
# to JersesQuixand 2007-07-12 16:55
don't worry about your english... it's more than good enough.

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# LMAO another self owned!Guest 2007-07-12 18:07
HAHAHAH dood dont talk anymore, how come everytime an xbot talks or post in here they always own their topic, did u just read what u wrote there qw, or ur just plain stupid like ur name itself. I'll explain where u just own urself, when Kenny stepped down did he ever sold his stock share on PS, answer is "No" did Robbie Bach did "Yes", i mean yes just a lil' but thats something right? so yea dont post anything and carefully read everything u post cuz ur just owning urself there buddy.

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# What thyne feowkeGuest 2007-07-12 19:23
Why's everyone going so nuts at Quixand?

It's a community, grow up and leave the guy alone

Reply
 

 
# it's ok manQuixand 2007-07-12 19:40
we go at this everyday...



wouldn't be a worthwhile community if these guys don't jab at me and some other PS3 buddies here like Folding Junkie and Vietone, and vise versa...



I'm used to guys like Common Sense, Hellraiser, Devise, Shatterdome and ofcourse their go-to-guy the aborted-baby-but-still-lived XMan.



Thanks Huften anyway for trying to smack some sense to these guys... won't work though.

Reply
 

 
# PS3 games are for unusual tastes??Guest 2007-07-12 19:51
Define that. Ninja Gaiden Sigma is unusual? Rainbow Six, unusual? Resistence, unusual? I'm confused...

Reply
 

 
# Why argue?Guest 2007-07-12 22:34
Why do people argue about which console is better? Its like each console is a freakin religion that people are trying to convert me to. Go with whatever you like. I like the games for 360 so i buy a 360. If you like the games for PS3, buy a PS3. And even if the person you're trying to make like a console, what are you gonna do if they buy it? Become best friends? I say leave the competing to the people that actually own the companies and enjoy what they create.



I sound like a hippie or some crap but still.....

Reply
 

 
# ManGuest 2007-07-12 22:52
Your Post is like a breath of fresh air

Reply
 

 
# lolGuest 2007-07-13 00:03
hasn't anyone seen the bit of news that says....



11.6 million xbox 360's are faulty??? which M$ just happened to confirm??



no???



well have a look for yourselves



http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=40933

Reply
 

 
# They won't stop arguingGuest 2007-07-13 00:21
It's called buyer's remorse.

Reply
 

 
# Did you forget?Guest 2007-07-13 02:44
When the 360 was launched in the US it had 18 (eighteen) titles.. that's only 6 titles more than the PS3 US launch.



PS3 had 23 titles on Euro launch (4 months later)



Now about 8 months after launch, the PS3 has 57 games available, 86 titles by March 2008!



As I see it.. I will have plenty of games to play the coming months ;)

Reply
 

 
# lolGuest 2007-07-13 04:44
MICROSOFT HAS admitted that all the 11.6 million Xbox 360s sold in the last 19 months are faulty.

In a statement, Volish spinsters said that all of the consoles suffer from a design flaw which could cause the machine to fail.



However, the outfit said that while it is extending the warranty coverage from one to three years to compensate consumers, it had no plans to recall or exchange the boxes.



Volish gaming supremo Robbie Bach refused to say what the problem is, but said that units currently in stock will be upgraded

Reply
 

 
# yupGuest 2007-07-13 05:46
Microsoft... thats what happen when you use a pc as a gaming console... PCs needs mantenance so does the xbox... pcs overheat...so does xbox... no other console in history suffered from overheat and died!!! So....yeah xbox is a failure in hardware (not software).



What MS need to do is redesign that darn box!! so it doesnt overheat instead of extending warranty :S i was going for xbox but no way... ms doesnt have warranty in my country

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# 360 owned by next yearGuest 2007-07-13 06:10
All i have to say is no one is worried about sony entertainment going under, especialy when thier sales doubled after the price drop and when up 3800% at amazon alone ensureing that the blueray format will be dominat alone if not that. I work at a public company and would not sell my stock unless im spending money like crazy or i know something doesnt feel right about my company. he sold the stock slowly to not look obvious but he still sold a significant amount. Sony will dominate the market by febuary of next year, they will have at least 5 exclusives that will sell the system like crazy one of them being MG4 that game alone will sell along with warhawk, devil may cry, FF XIII and lair. All the Xbox has to look forward to is Halo wich is not much of a game to begin with and maybe more maps for Gears of war wich is an excelent game. After all the years in the buisness the only game for the xbox i would buy is Gears. PS has had soo many i cannot list. Sony is here to stay, xbox gets worse every generation in my view, 33% failure way too high. thats 1 out of 3, i would be very pissed if i got one of those. I play my PS3 every day and will play even more when FFXIII and MG4 come out.

Reply
 

 
# LMAO XBOT got owned again!!Guest 2007-07-13 07:18
Ninja Gaiden WAS from Xdead, they ported to ps3 cuz they think ps3 is better, hmp hypocrite much..... and whats so unusual about Rainbow Six and Resistance, maybe u need to define unusual because i dont think u know what unusual means.

Reply
 

 
# what do u mean argue???Guest 2007-07-13 07:25
We'ere not arguing wether Ps3 is better than faulty and unstable machine like xdead360. Arguing about that is just plain stupid, our intention is that just give back that faulty machine of urs and buy a console that you will use and that works. xdead360 has more games, i agree but for how long 3 to 5 years? look what happen to xbox they stop supporting that console when their faulty next gen machine came out.... you see what my point is now? so if ur smart go, invest on a machine that will last the longest not on a machine that cant even live long to even compete w/ other machine.

Reply
 

 
# heyGuest 2007-07-13 08:06
all you $ony fans should face the fact that 360 is 100x better. It's got better graphics so far, it's got TV. Like 100 channels PLUS movies(not old crappy ones) and an arcade thats actually UPDATED once in a while, instead of randomly like the pissoffthree. It's got thousands of titles actually worth BUYING not crappy remkes lke ninja gaiden(same as xbox but has crappy graphic updates) and spiderman and godfather. WTF sony?! You make us pay extra money for something I could get on another system with better graphics. Face it fantards, $ony only wants your money. You're not getting any more good games for a looooong arse time (march 08 wtf!?!? I payed 600 bucks for this piece of shootake!)I could go on 360 right now, play someone, and actually add them IN THAT GAME. You ps3 beet chess have to leave your crappy game to add someone, or even talk to them in a chat. pfft yeah a real break through 8 cells, and none of them can let you chat. WORST BUY I EVER MADE!

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# Yet Another Self OwnedGuest 2007-07-13 09:02
Im foreal man, like i said b4 y does xbots keep owning themself on their own words, im serious. let me tell u this, Cheaper Console, cheaper hardware, means ur machine will break faster. PS3 made us pay more than ur cheap ass xdead360 cuz it has expensive hardware and its very durable for example "OVER HEATING" lawl, so yea i'd rather pay more and know that my stuff will last longer than pay cheap and worry when is it going to break. I Still have my Original PS, Psone, and PS2 those i bought when they came out... they still works fine and i had no problem whatsoever, so for those saying their psone or ps2 had disc error iono bout u, maybe u didnt take care of ur console and just put them on the carpet or maybe stupid enough to touch the lence even tho they indicated that dont touch the lence? anyway LickyMieBalsac, ur xbotness just got own and why dont u lickymyassdouch e :D

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# dumped shares?Guest 2007-07-13 09:04
ummmm...no. SNE stock is doing pretty well after Nov 17, 2006.

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# hmmGuest 2007-07-13 09:10
i see Your back Mister bashing sony and Quixand any chance you get. He is a great person, and knows his stuff. He doesn't sprout out pro MS fanboy c.r.a.p like you do. He tells puts stories from all consoles.



Benny do us a favor and stop talking. You know know as much as mister common sens eon the failures of xbox. If MS learned to no rush there system to get a year start they would have had a better working consoles.

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# yeaGuest 2007-07-13 09:21
I try to help too Quixand but they think im you and stuff and bash me as well. Not cool but it shows you there Immaturity level.

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# SydeGuest 2007-07-13 09:37
But even if NG was from xbox it shows you that NG will not be an exclusive anymore. Just look at the revamped and fixed stuff in sigma over black. It shows you that Sigma beats Black 2 fold.



Also the sales and popularity has gone through the roof, they might make more NG on PS3 now.



But agree with the rest you said.

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# lolGuest 2007-07-13 09:43
Unfortunately MS isnt a hardware company its a SOFTWARE company. With that said the xbox probably wont be fixed to meet the gamers.



There should be a console checker that checks the Games consoles. And if they don't meet to te demand of the product working right, they get out of the competition.

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# wowGuest 2007-07-13 09:49
Do you even listen to your self, all your doing is bashing sony ps3. This is called xbox fanboyism. And i suggest you stop being a fanboy, it just making you look foolish.

Reply
 

 
# IDIOTICGuest 2007-07-13 11:43
I smell bullshotake. My ps2 broke THE YEAR I BOUGHT IT. So don't give me this bs story that it works perfectly. And my 360 has NEVER broken. It's just you fanbit chess that send fake reports of how your sytem broke 8 times, and raped you with a hotdog. And I don't know where you get your logic siedeeksucker, but I'd rather pay 300 bucks for a console that lets me

A Watch FULL new movies, instead of a crappy 30 minute trailer that I could get anywhere

B let me watch tv shows that are NEW from any GOOD network

C chat with people, either by CLEAR video, voice, or msn.

So we can clearly see whats the better buy now? Can't we? ;)

PS htf did i get owned? i don't even know you xD

And how exactly am i making myself look silly exactly???

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# LAWL AGAINGuest 2007-07-13 13:27
dood is that all u gotta say on ur xdead 360, a i WATCH silly movie on my xdead 360, b i WATCH tv on my xdead 360 (have u heard about Television that u could watch tv shows?), c i chat using video, voice, or msn (have you heard of PC?). dood are u on denial or something, the people that are saying their xdead360 broke for 6 to 8 times are your fellow xdead360 fantards. btw ur not just making urself more silly every time u post but u sound more idiotic like your post above, seriously.

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# o rly?Guest 2007-07-13 14:45
I'm just stating the facts brother. I've never sent in my 360. Maybe I'm lucky, but I think these people are just money hungry. My 360 is LAUNCH, still works perfectly, hasn't had any problems. And I think you should watch where you talk about the 360 brother, in case you didn't know, you're in the 360 section. This isn't gaystation three (only a comeback at that dead joke) And wouldn't you say we're getting what we paid for? We have an unlimited amount of games, not to mention backward compatible games that actually PLAY ONLINE, and don't give a DNAS error each time you try to go online. So who's in denial there buddy?

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# What the?Guest 2007-07-13 19:15
To Syde, ever hear of the pot calling the kettle black? Please do not reply with "ur just plain stupid" if you cannot even speak elementary school English, that reply was honestly a pain to read. Go back to the high school you dropped out of



To the guy above, I'm not sure if you were listing those five exclusive games you mentioned or just five games that will sell well, but Devil May Cry is not exclusive to the PS3.



To anyone who honestly thinks Microsoft is going down because one semi-high-ranked person with the company sold some stock: there is something wrong with you.



I wonder how many Xbox fantards would have a big 'ole field day if Phil Harrison sold Sony stock. I don't even wanna think about it. God I hate fanboys

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# ROFLGuest 2007-07-13 19:26
"Immaturity levels"? Don't make me quote some of your old posts boy

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# ALSOGuest 2007-07-13 19:28
My PS3 freezes just like any console. So buying something that you know will last? My ps3 froze whenever I tried to play a match of warhawk (realy great game BTW) so before you talk about one being perfect, do a little research ;)

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# NoGuest 2007-07-13 19:51
They ported it to PS3 because they didn't care enough about the system to create an original game.

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# Just stopGuest 2007-07-13 19:56
Just stop replying to every single post with "LAWL XBOT OWNED HIMSELFZ", because you are the only who "owns" himself with his own words, and you only make yourself look like more and more of a fool with each reply you make.



Do you expect anyone to take you seriously with the way you write? They don't, so stop wasting your time.



And what's with all the people above getting so bent out of shape because Quixand submitted this article? Why the hell do you care? Jesus some of you people, namely Benny, need lives

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# um..Guest 2007-07-13 20:35
Wonga do everyone a favor and leave. And what are you going to quote, me supporting Sony and me sending Mister and Shatterdome in place. All they do is bash sony.



Don't make yourself look foolish.

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# lolGuest 2007-07-13 20:46
LickyMieBalsac stop making useless comments will ya. All your doing is showing your xbox fanboyism.



Also the fact that your annoying.

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# LAWL!Guest 2007-07-14 00:55
if u cant read what i said about ur stupid post then ur the one that need to go back to preschool cuz i clearly wasnt talking on another language, ur more pathetic than i thought for bashing on what i said.... it clearly states that u really cant back up on what u said and bash on my usage of words just because YOU cant understand it. if u cant say anything somewhat educated or u just cant back up ur reason just bother to post because u just keep owning urself over and over etc.....

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# huh?Guest 2007-07-14 01:04
do u even know what ur saying, i clearly states my subject of the matter not like anyone that puts a line w/ dots. seriously if u want ur reader to be interested on what ur gonna post u need a strong subject, ur telling me that no one read my post seriously and u think people read ur post seriously... i think not because all u do is criticize either the name of the poster or just plain air. ur just mad cuz i owned u on every post u did and u dont have anything to back up on everything u said... so maybe ur the one that need to stop cuz i pity people like u, seriously.

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# you have a ps3?Guest 2007-07-14 01:09
IF u really do have a ps3, why did u even buy it on the first place if u really hated it. if your gonna lie dont make it to obvious cuz we aint born yesterday. I've never had freeze's on my ps3 when i go online, maybe ur really referring on ur xdead360 cuz it keep freezing/burning on you when u try to play ur oh so hot games that ur console cant even handle.

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# money hungry?Guest 2007-07-14 01:16
do you really thing their after MS's money after they had that RoD (RingofDeath) or overheating, maybe u need to re trace ur research and stop assuming.. they bought that faultly machine because MS said its the best next gen console, and when they got it that faulty next gen console stop working and gave them alot of issue. So, now ur telling me their after MS's money when they paid a bundle just because MS sold a non stable non working and have a prototype Vcard?

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# o rly?Guest 2007-07-14 08:47
I don't have a ps3 and 360? Tell me ur account and Ill send u a msg on both. I own all sytems out, im just reeaaly pissed of when ppl start talkin stuff bout the 360. Mines never died, and im still usn it. And all i was saying is my pissoffthree freezes when i want to play warhawk. So if u dont have the game, dont say it doesnt freeze because almost everyone says the ps3 freezes when they play it.

And how is it a failure when its the best selling nextgen console? And when its so good, its about to replace cable because of all the stuff it has to offer?

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# ANDGuest 2007-07-14 08:53
I didn't hate it when I bought it, I only started hating it because of how limited it is. And if I didn't really own one, I wouldn't know that it gives a DNAS error when I want to play some of my ps2 games. And I wouldn't know that you can only send a whole list message to up to 12 people. (not a day) And I wouldn't have known that you have to agree to a stupid policy before you can play games like resistance and warhawk online. SO I do own a ps3...

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# um...Guest 2007-07-15 10:33
..I have warhawk and it never had froze b4. So i don't know what your talking about. And 20 of my friends sai the same thing. I think your talking about X360 being frozen every time you play games buddy.

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# heyGuest 2007-07-15 10:36
Stop lying will ya, you don't have ps3 and thats that. All the ps3 people i know from neo seeker and gamestop says warhawk had never froze on them b4. And no problems for the ps3 either.

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# Are you slow?Guest 2007-07-15 15:21
I just said give meyour id and ill add you. If you don't have one yourself, then bud out.

And syde? I thought you said stop being a fanboy huh? What was that about 360 freezing there buddy?

Back to stealth! You said people you know? You don't have a ps3, and have never played it right? EXACTLY

I've played the game every fn day the beta was out, and it would freeze at least twice. AND all the people on my list say it froze on them, and they thought insomniac patched it, which they didn't. So I know nothing about the ps3? Tell me your name on there, and get on now.

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# oh yeah, BTWGuest 2007-07-15 15:26
Insomniac even admitted it froze, and they were working on an update on it. So don't give me your bs story just to make ppl think im lying.

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# lolGuest 2007-07-17 17:48
Im sorry i guiess you didn't read what i said b4 here let me put it in quotations for ya " ..I have warhawk and it never had froze b4. So i don't know what your talking about. And 20 of my friends said the same thing. I think your talking about X360 being frozen every time you play games buddy."



Also the people i know from Neoseeker which is 1000 at best said it never frozed on the ps3. Still think im lying huh how about you stop BS to think im lying. Since we know your full of Crap as it is.

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