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Sony's Hirai: it'll take years before PS3 shows its full power |
Listed in: PS3 Tags: Kazuo Hirai, Official PlayStation Magazine, Sony
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According to Sony Computer Entertainment president Kaz Hirai, the PlayStation 3's full power will be harnessed for at least four years from now. "The power that we've packed into PS3 will really manifest itself in software titles that come up four, five or six years down the line," said Hirai in an interview published in the Official PlayStation Magazine.
Hirai also acknowledged the fact that many developers complained about the difficulty they experience in programming a game for PS3, but said that he would be more disappointed if programmers didn't have a hard time with Sony's next-gen console. He explained:
If they came back and told me, 'PS3? We can do this in a heartbeat,' that would be worrying because what it is telling me is that we're not pushing the envelope from a technology standpoint.
It's good to know that there will be better things to come in the next few years with the PS3. However, the question is this: are you willing to wait?
Do hit the comments link to share your thoughts!
Via CVG
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Sony... your awesome!
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With everyone mocking their long term plan, I'll laugh if Sony actually succeed.
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360 comes out a yr early. Now games are better than the PS3. 360 is supposedly easier to develop for. NOW THERES THE CATCH.
If 360 is as easy to develop for as many claim, wudnt that mean that 360s power has already been harnest?
PS3 is supposedly harder to develop for, released less than a yr ago. If at this early stage of the ps3, the games are close if not as gd as 360s, wudnt that mean ps3 has more to come b4 it peaks? Im not making sense but if its hard to develop for and games STILL come out as equal to 360s counterpart, then id be right to say THERES MORE TO COME(performanc e wise)
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Besides, the 360 is NOT easy to develop for, it is EASIER to develop for compared to the PS3, that's the difference. BOTH are difficult to program, and devs have expressed this view (Valve being the most vocal and critical).
With Sony's first console, the Playstation, devs loved the console because it was EASIER to develop for compared to the complicated Sega Saturn, but that didn't stop Playstation games improving throughout it's life. And just as it is with the 360 today, the Playstation was easier to develop games on, it was not EASY.
BOTH the 360 and PS3 have features which devs have either not used AT ALL yet or only barely scratched the surface. There is so much within the GPUs to be utilised and so much potential within BOTH systems that it's nonsense (and rather arrogant) for anyone here to assume they know how much each console has been pushed so far.
To bring this back to Hirai, he is saying nothing new. This has been the case for every console released, and will continue to be the case in the future with the PS3, 360 and yes, even the Wii.
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No doubt there'll be replies from those who for no logically reason have decided that THEY know exactly which year after launch each console will reach it's peak (as some have done already for the 360). But I'm tired and so I'm off to sleep now, so I'll return during the day (in my part of the world :)).
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"Any developer who states how much percent a game uses is just blowing smoke. Think of it like this. You can fill a glass up with rocks, but there are still air holes there. You can go farther and fill those little gaps with gravel, and even farther by putting in sand and water."
For those who don't understand the analogy, it's how efficiently a developer uses the hardware. By extension, one could assume that exclusive games will run nicer than multiplatform ones, as the game is totally optimized to use a certain platform.
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PC FTW indeed...
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This, of course, means that while the Xbox 360 is using all of its cores to run a game, the PS3 is running the port using 2 SPUs (2 cores) instead of using its full power.
People cite the fact that the graphics look the same on both consoles, but they tend to forget it's because the PS3's 1) running a 360 port, and 2) only using 2 of the available 8 processing units.
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Can't wait for these next few years. If everyone thinks that Heavenly Sword and Bioshock look awesome, their eyes are going to melt out of their skulls in the coming years.
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It's pointless taking about cores and hardware when neither you nor I have imformation about EXACTLY how the hardware is being used for each game, since we are not game developers and we didn't develop the games in question. So please stop jumping to your own conclusions.
You gave Oblivion as an example of a game being the exception. Ok, well let's take Oblivion as an example then. According to Bethesda, the improvement to the PS3 version had nothing to do with more power, it was all due to more developement time;
http://www.shacknews.com/extras/2007/020707_petehines_2.x
"Shack: Can you offer any insight into how much of that was made possible by the PS3 hardware versus simply the additional development time?
Pete Hines: It was entirely due to extra development time. It's not like the PS3 can do this and the others can't, it's actually something we were considering doing for the other platforms as well."
Throughout this gen, the differences between 360 and PS3 games will remain narrow, since both consoles have similar power (as confirmed by devs) with the PS3 having a slight edge overall. The only noticeable difference will be more content for *some* games, thanks to Blu-ray.
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HG99, the quote from Valve says it all, and as for the PS3 achieving the same without using the SPUs. If you knew anything about the hardware you're talking about, you'll know that Cell's PPU (PPE) runs the main code and the SPUs (SPEs) handles ALL the arithmetic calculations. So it is IMPOSSIBLE for devs to create a game like Team Fortress without using SPUs.
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You ignore the facts that a) Although the Cell processor theoretically has twice the floating-point power of the 360's CPU, the 360's CPU offers around twice the power for running game code, and b) The 360's GPU is viewed by devs as being slightly better than RSX, and c) The 360 has more memory for it's games, because it's OS only takes 32MB max, whereas the PS3's OS takes 84MB min! (This makes a big difference, especially if devs try to port a game).
I listen to DEVS who work with BOTH, since they are the experts, not people on forums. For example;
http://uk.ps3.ign.com/articles/704/704524p2.html
"IGN: What is it like to program and design the game for Xbox 360 versus the PlayStation 3?...
Magnus Hogdahl: The PS3 will have a content size advantage with Blu-ray and a CPU advantage for titles that are able to utilize a lot of the SPUs. The Xbox 360 has a slight GPU advantage and its general purpose triple-core CPU is relatively easy to utilize compared to SPUs. I expect that it will be near impossible to tell Xbox 360 and PS3 screenshots apart."
This is echoed again and again by devs, including iD's John Carmack, who also says the consoles are very close in terms of power, and says the PS3 has a *little* more power, but only those devs who spend the time and resources will be able to use it, but even then the differences are far less than the consoles last gen.
The ONLY people who make the claims you and Um have made here are gamers on forums. You don't read this from multi-format devs, you don't read this in articles about the consoles, you don't read this anywhere except from those who have nothing to do with creating games! :|
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He is right, as the years go on, devs will be getting more and more out of the PS3. However, what he says applies to ALL consoles, just as it has in the past, so it will be in the future, hence the 360 games (which is NOT way more powerful than the PS3) will improve throughout this gen too.
Expect both consoles to remain very close throughout this gen, with the best results seen in exclusive games written from the ground up on each console.
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that is so true gamefeed. read what the devs say about the ps3and 360 and they say the consoles are almost the same, where each are better at some things than the other.
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Now the xbox 360 is limited in the cpu department. However in the gpu department xbox 360 has an edge over the ps3. But that edge is somewhat short lived. Due to the fact the xbox 360 uses a DVD9 format and ofocurse the CPU limitations. Now be that it may the xbox uses standard dvd's. The GPU is able to render texture and lighting better than the ps3. The GPU cannot take advantage of polygons/pixels very much. Due to the fact of the limitations in CPUs.
Now for those curious in knowing why xbox 360 has a crap load of features in their dashboard. Well its simple the 360 has more ram memory than the ps3. Also the bytes for the dashboard from what i heard are very small. Which even if ps3 starts to show its full power. the xbox 360 can still take advantage of that ram and continue to implement features. *rumor* xbox 360 may take advantage of the hdvd drive they are selling and start to produce games for it. again a small firmware update could make that possible.
The Ps3 has a very small amount of ram memory. and the xmb as limited the features are. the byte size is pretty big. What makes the xmb features take longer is simply the fact that sony is looking for ways to optomize the xmb by shrinking down its byte size in order to implement more features.
Again i know im not 100% accurate. But this is for people that were curious about both the 360 and ps3.
Cheers
blah
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Now, about polygon's and pixels...
The problem on the PC is that the floating point power of the CPU is usually not sufficient to process and feed the GPUs with polygon information, which means that polygon performance is usually effected by CPU performance on the PC. On the 360 and PS3, this is NOT a problem, because they have included CPUs with vector processing performance well above PC CPUs for use with GPUs which are less powerful than today's PC GPUs, with the result being that neither Xenos or RSX are being limited by their console's CPUs.
As for pixels, this is entirely down to the GPU, not the CPU. The CPU does not feed the GPU with individual pixels, it feeds the GPUs with polygon information which is textured from data pre-loaded into video RAM, and therefore the rendering process is entirely down to the GPU. The only exception would be specific effects, like volumetric clouds which are rendered by the Cell processor in the game Warhawk.
One other point, as stated already, the 360's CPU is weaker for arithmetic, but stronger for general code, so the differences balance out, as games are a mixture of both. Hence depending on the game, sometimes the 360's CPU will have the advantage overall, and at other times, the PS3's Cell processor will have the advantage. That said, it should swing more to the PS3 overall, since floating-point performance is increasing more important for games.
Regarding RAM. BOTH the 360 and PS3 have 512MB of RAM. It is unified on the 360, whereas on the PS3, it is split into two banks, 256MB for RSX (the same GDDR3 memory found in the 360), and 256MB of *slightly* faster ram for Cell, which is XDR. The 360's GPU has 10MB embedded DRAM to enable the GPU to perform numerous bandwidth saving operations, such as free(ish) MSAA.
Sorry to make it sound like a lecture, that's not my intension, but I had to correct some of the points you'd made. Still, thanks for contributing to this topic in an unbiased way, right or wrong you have the right attitude, and I respect that a lot.
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Lair and HS look no better (and in many cases worse) then Gears, and those were both PS3 only games, no porting and also sarcificed alot of gameplay for presentation and aesthetics...and stil are not anyhting special...
I guess they are only using 2 spu's as well ?
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Also, the biggest jumps in most console graphics didn't come until 3-4 years afterwards(even xbox, which was just a PC didn't peak until 3+ yrs after, halo vs halo 2 is ridiculous)...I suppose that could take longer this gen since it's the first time consoles have used multiple cpus's....still, I would like to see a new gen of consoles in the typical 4 year span.....if for nothing else but more memory and gpu's....
Really both consoles are just the first forray into this type of console, using multiple CPU's....Sony should just realise that and quit trying to say PS3 will be up-to-date forever. It will not, in 6 years it will be so underpowered compared to what is available.
MS isn't worried, it's going to release a 9ghz quad core running 5 threads each and a new dx 11 GPU with 2 gigs of ram...all based on a similar design as the 360 so that devs will not lose everything they have learned....ohh prolly holiday 2009...2010 at the latest....with sony having 5 more years to go in their decade strategy...Sony could fess up and do the same...hell they already have way more powerful cell cpu's on the market....however Sony doesn't want to scare people away so they are talking the talk trying to get people to buy now....seems irresponsible since it was their choice to make it so expensive...
Then some real crazy sh*t can happen....
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Also as far as textures go, you should know that any texture that will show up on your screen has to be first stored in local memory before a polygon can be mapped with it. Both machines have the same amount of memory (ram) so Blu-ray does nil for textures....other then you can store more on the disc, but it won't help for loading more on screen.
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My two best buddies, best Slave number one and Slave number two.
First u said u ONLY listen to devs since they are experts than u agree devs are just blowing smokes about what they talk about. Then u failed to see this : its (xbox360) general purpose triple-core CPU is relatively easy to utilize compared to SPUs, easy + tapped, is it harder to run cars on petrol or H2O.
LMAO I love you both, I and Microsoft thanks u 2 for the supports, GREAT Job SLAVES.
My XBOTS i love you guys for the support.
Thanks I sure love to own your bases.
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Please ignore him and look at GAMERFEED AND SHATTERDOME POST.
They are my XBOTS SLAVES NO.1 and No.2, working hard for microsoft.
I know since they are actual microsoft gaming division staff LMAO you just got pawn by them Fartist, you sure have no idea what you talking about.
GOOD JOB XBOTS GamerFeed and Shatterdome, see you at work in our microsoft regional meeting.
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Everything GamerFeed said here is correct. 100%. He is not defending MS at all, he is only telling the truth and he backs it up with links. He even attacked a 360 fanboy here for claiming the 360 was way more powerful than the PS3. So how does that make him a fanboy?
Having said that, I can't same the same for Shatterdome, because from posts I've seen him make elsewhere, he comes over as a 360 fanboy.
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Everything GamerFeed said here is correct. 100%. He is not defending MS at all, he is only telling the truth and he backs it up with links. He even attacked a 360 fanboy here for claiming the 360 was way more powerful than the PS3 (look at his reply to that fanboy below). So how does that make him a 360 fanboy?
Having said that, I can't same the same for Shatterdome, because from posts I've seen him make elsewhere, he does comes over as a 360 fanboy (or at least, very biased towards that console).
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Try to understand what you read next time. He said devs who program on both consoles are the real experts that we should listen to, and he's right. Please tell me why you diagree!
But in the past, we've had a FEW console exclusive devs who claim they know how much they are pushing a console, and Naughty dog says any dev who claims this are just blowing smoke (this happened a lot on the PS2). 99.99% of all devs do NOT make such claims because they know it's rubbish, as Naught dog says.
That's not a contradiction Bill Gates, because it's two entirely different things, and so you're wrong to call GamerFeed a fanboy.
I don't usually defend people like this online, but GamerFeed made a lot of sense here, and he did it without being biased.
>" Then u failed to see this : its (xbox360) general purpose triple-core CPU is relatively easy to utilize compared to SPUs, easy + tapped"
Again you fail to understand what you read. GamerFeed said it is easier, but not EASY. Being relatively easy doesn't mean it's easy. Juggling 4 balls is very hard, juggling 5 balls is even harder, so juggling 4 balls is RELATIVELY easy compared to 5 balls, but that doesn't make 4 balls easy.
So if another console comes out with a CPU that's even harder than Cell to utilise, then this would make Cell _relatively_ easy to program compared to that CPU, but it doesn't make it easy and therefore it doesn't mean Cell is fully tapped!
Please think before you post next time. :)
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The 360 has been out for 1 year and 10 months, it has a LONG way to go before it's power is fully tapped (and it's lifespan is longer than 4 years btw). It's funny when I read gamers claiming games like Gears of War is the best the 360 will get. So, Epic, with their first game for the 360, released 1 year after the console's launch, with a game engine NOT written from the ground up for the console, have managed to reach the 360's full potential. R.i.g.h.t!
But hey, keep telling yourself those things Stealth!, whatever makes you feel better and helps you sleep at night!
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Bioshock however is devoloped on 360/PC and scores a perfect 10 on 360 and around 9 on PC.
So your but its a port logic is total BULL..
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Let me show you some:
Juggling 4 balls and juggling 5 or 6 or seven balls, so why is juggling 4 balls easier than 5 balls? Is it because 4 balls are easier to master hence look at it this way easier to tap in? once you master 4 balls means fully tapped right so it is relatively easy to juggle 4 balls cause you havent tap all your skills to master the 5 or 6 or 7 balls.
SO PLS THINK AGAIN BEFORE YOU POST AND PLAY WITH WORDS
Thanks buddy for trying.
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Also for the record I am no fanboy, and I am not biased towards 360 I biased against PS3...I used to be a hardcore sony fan until they started pulling sh*t out their asses and being more of a lying, deceptful corporation then MS is....
I never lie in my statements and I never make blind judgements without facts to base them on....I just word my statements such that I am ragging on PS3....because it needs a ragging on...
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So going back to the consoles, devs haven't begun to 'master' the 360 (or PS3). Just because it's easier and just because games are running on it with some great results, doesn't mean it's fully tapped, in the same way as someone juggling 4 balls doesn't mean they've mastered the ART of juggling 4 balls, and therefore doesn't mean "fully tapped". In will take them years and years of practice with that number of balls before they can be considered masters, and even then, there's more they could learn. So they're never "fully tapped", just as how the consoles will never be fully tapped. Fact!
So please take your own advice and THINK AGAIN BEFORE YOU POST AND PLAY WITH WORDS.
Thanks buddy for trying. But please try harder next time. ---Y-a-w-n---
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That's a subtle difference, and therefore I think you can understand why you can come over as a 360 fanboy.
I apologise if I misinterpreted your motives. :)
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i'm definitely glad they don't own Ps3s... then we would have to actually play with them... i bet they whine and make excuses when they get shot in the head.
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No multiplatform dev has ever said the 360 is more powerful than the PS3. Go find a link where they've said this. At least GamerFeed found links to back up his arguement that the 360 and PS3 were nearly the same but the PS3 has slightly more powerful in total.
Where are your links. Post them here so we can all read it for ourselves.
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ps:
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You said: "you can't possibly tell me that xbox s 3 and only three cpus can do more than ps3 spus."
Don't you understand a word of what you read?
Let me explain...I'll break it down for you. The 360's CPU is called Xenon, the PS3's CPU is called Cell, and both are running at 3.2Ghz, and both are made by IBM, and both are based upon IBM's PowerPC.
Got that so far? Good, let's continue...
Xenon has 3 identical cores. Each core is a full CPU, with a unit for running main code, and a unit for arithmetic which has been enhanced for the 360, where the floating-point power of just one arithmetic unit in Xenon is the same as one SPU (and Xenon has 3 arithmetic units in total, one per core).
Still with me? Good.
Ok, so the floating-point power of Xenon is equivalent to 3 SPUs, which is why it's half that of the PS3, which has 6 SPUs in use for games.
Now that should be simple enough so far.
But then there's the cores for running main code (the game code itself). Xenon has one main unit per core, which gives it THREE 3.2GHz cores for running main code. The PS3 has just ONE 3.2GHz core for running main code, which is the PPU.
So Cell has more power for arithmetic, but Xenon has more power for main code. So when you break up all the things the CPU is doing in a game, in some areas Xenon will be superior to Cell, in other areas, Cell will be superior. Which comes out on top depends on the game!
You also said: "They assume that the xbox is better graphiics and or gameplay because they only use about 3 or 4 or 5 spus but not all eight."
Please cut out that arrogant "I know best" cr#p. Who are you to say what devs know or don't know, or what they assume or don't assume? They KNOW what they're talking about from direct experience, you don't. And for your information, it is not 8 SPUs. Cell in the PS3 has only 7 SPUs because one is ignored to improve yields and lower costs (i.e. if a new Cell processor has a faulty SPU, it can still be used for the PS3 if the other 7 work), and another SPU is permenantly reserved for the Operation System, leaving just 6 SPUs for PS3 games.
Besided my post getting too long, I wouldn't waste my time with the rest of your post because you clearly know nothing and yet you think you know everything, even more than the devs themselves. lol. *rolleyes*
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He provides links to support his facts, what have you provided? You even think there are up to 8 SPUs available for PS3 games, so it is YOU who should get your facts straight.
"We all no that one day ps3 will prove supierior to xbox. Most of us no that now"
Says the person who claims he doesn't like either console. What a liar, your blind faith in the power of the PS3 with no links to back your claims shows that you're a PS3 fanboy who doesn't have the guts to admit it.
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360 VS PS3
LET'S ALL BE FANBOYS
AND FIGHT LIKE LITTLE SISSY GIRLS OVER A GAME SYSTEM!
FTW!!
McLovin'
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the games speak for them selves xbox 360 is superior NOW get the fuc on ot of here.
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That question applies to you.
I knew you couldn't back up your posts because you are as dumb as the idiots in here claiming the 360 is already maxed out, and that it's power has been fully tapped because the 360 is easy to program. They can't prove what they say either, and they don't need to because they are fanboys, just like you, and fanboys never need proof to believe anything! :)
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Like anyother XBOTS that refused to take others opinions and refuse to lose in all discussions! Like i said KEEP PLAYIN WITH WORDS IT WONT END! You basically did and I did, such a basic analysis and you failed to see it!
Anyway I welcome you the ranks SLAVE no.3!
Keep up the GOOD JOB! I love the part when you repeat and quote me: "So please take your own advice and THINK AGAIN BEFORE YOU POST AND PLAY WITH WORDS." Thanks man I didn't know that will take so much out of you since you know you did get the idea and it sunk into your head so bad. Well maybe if i repeat it again you will understand, and you can't always force your opinion on others unless you are XBOTS, so i forgive you buddy since you joined the ranks:
SO LET ME REPEAT PLS THINK AGAIN BEFORE YOU POST AND PLAY WITH WORDS AGAIN AND AGAIN, AND AGAIN, AND AGAIN.... yawnnnnnn
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The juggling analogy is very easy to understand and it fits in well with the analogy from Naughty Dog. So why don't you go and tell Naughty Dog they're wrong too, because your arguements goes against their analogy ( as quoted by mr toasty, who has also provided a link now). Please tell me why Naughty Dog are wrong and you are right.
You've made no contribution to this topic other than to call others Xbots and slaves because you don't like what they're saying. Why don't you shut up and provide some links to support your claim that the 360 is fully tapped. Provide comments from devs who back support your claims as GamerFeed did for his.
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Work commitments meant I couldn't return to this thread yesterday, but I see that others have 'taken up the baton' instead, and done so brilliantly (especially SimonSays and Overkill Bill). And a nod of approval to Shatterdome too.
Thank you all. :)
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and stop trying to act tough online when we all know kids like you are too scared to act like that out in the real world. you are a coward trying to act tough online, which makes me laugh at you when i read your dumb posts.
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