Lair to include civilian genocide, also more Xbox vs PS3 stuff |
Because it's a weekend and because when you cover topics like Factor 5's Lair, comparisons to Xbox 360 games always pop-up - this no matter how much you try to not make the unneeded comparison. When Julian Eggebrecht was interviewed by Mercury News, and was asked about what he feels are the differences between the Sony PlayStation 3 and the Microsoft Xbox 360, he said:
YouÂ’ll have a hard time if you port without having a PS3 game in mind when you created the 360 version. That is where a lot of complaints are coming from. They created the 360 engine with a unified memory architecture in mind, with the embedded frame buffer with its advantages and disadvantages, and not thinking too much in early stages about multi-core. If you try to get that over to the PS3, youÂ’re in for a bad surprise. The PS3 is all about streamlining about the two different memory pools. They are separate. You donÂ’t have to do tiling because you donÂ’t have an embedded frame buffer. All of these advantages of the PS3 turn into disadvantages if you donÂ’t start making your game on the PS3. Hence the griping. If you create first on the PS3, it is pretty easy to port it to the 360. A lot of companies coming on board now will probably start on the PS3 and move to the 360. The lucky thing for us is we didnÂ’t have to think about the 360 at all.
As for the memory limitation in next gen consoles compared to PCs Eggebrecht notes that although you'd always complain that you don't have enough memory, 512 is probably the sweet spot.
I think it would have been a crucial mistake if either Sony or Microsoft had only 256 megabytes. I somehow have the hunch that both of them would have loved to. Tim Sweeney was very outspoken in the early days in the Microsoft circle. The 512 is probably the sweet spot. You have to figure out how to stream. Lair streams its geometry and its textures. If you have got enough assets which are streaming, the 512 megabytes are adequate. And if you have a large enough media to store those textures.
As for his opinion of Gears of War and ultimately the Unreal Engine, he said:
In Gears of War there is no way you could actually go above the city and then basically go seamlessly from air to ground. Unreal Engine in the end just provides for corridor and corridor being more a metaphor here in terms of design. Our engine is always designed in a huge world bubble and that can be 32 kilometers by 32 kilometers. You can go anywhere at extreme speeds. Unreal Engine is dependent on the fact that you go relatively slowly through your world. With us, you can go through the world fast or slowly. If you are in night mode, or you are on the ground, you get all of the detail that Unreal Engine provides. But there is no way you can get the macro.
For those of you who are eager and have console zealot pitchforks ready, please note that Eggebrecht is not promoting Lair at the expense of the Xbox 360, he's just promoting Lair period. To be fair, he even comments on other PS3 titles and how it supposedly doesn't do what Lair does. Here's his words:
Lair is also the only game which does all of its light in real time, and the atmospheric calculations. That gives us the day and nights cycle, the fluid dynamic simulations in the water. That wouldnÂ’t have been possible half a year ago. We needed more time for that. You need the SPUs for that. Extensive streaming. Ted Price mentioned in an interview that Ratchet is now the first one where they start to stream. I can understand why they didnÂ’t do it for Resistance. With Lair, you have to do it or you cannot manage the detail level and the expectations for the detail level and at the same time move around this world.
And finally, for those of you who are annoyed with Lair-to-other-game comparisons, and cross-platform comparisons in general, here's what Eggebrecht had to say about a reaction to Lair during one of their focus tests (warning: may have minor spoilers):
In one level you havenÂ’t seen, you make it to enemy territory with a huge fleet and you start firebombing the city. One person in the focus group test said he didnÂ’t want to fire bomb civilians. You are asked by one of your buddies to do that. But he said it was morally wrong. That was an amazing comment. That is exactly the kind of questions that we want the player to have. Suffice it to say, the story does support that quite a bit. You should experience what the character is experiencing and the character experiences exactly that arc. It is an inspiration of wars of today and wars past.
Via Mercury News
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Comments
So Lair can basically be done by just using a different engine? Cool! HA! 360 claims another victim from the PS3 fanboys! Cry some more fanboys!! . Post below me is gay .
This game is gonna be awesome... I think its about time to show off some of the PS3's potential...
That's a joke... The 360 has already met its potential while the PS3 is just starting.. In 2 yrs that thing you call a console is just going to be a good heater that might blow up on ya.. Ha...
yet people are missing the point of the interview, which I find interesting. Developers soon will use the resources they get with the PS3 then port to the 360.
is it possible that games are going to start being made for the PS3, then be made for the XB360? If it provides the best video game quality is, then it is all good. :)
aww fanboy, get your head out of your dad's ass. 360 hasn't reached potential yet lol the things fanboys do .
heh... yeah the things fanboys do... that must include you eh? Coming on a ps3news area just to troll. Why don't you go play your all mighty 360 instead of wasting your time with us ps3 fans... oh wait, you can't do that because your is most likely getting replaced... got to love those 3 rings of death eh?
Neither the 360 or PS3 have met their potentials yet, and probably won't come close until about mid 2008. You saw how long it took for the PS2 to reach its potential with GOWII and SotC, right? And the original XBox still had TONS of potential before the 360 came along. It drives me crazy that people are comparing consoles when there's still nothing on either that pushes them to the max.
Technically do pS3 first then port down to 360 make sense. Unfortunately most wastern developers look at their games from a financial point of view. In that case go 360 first then port to PS3 would be preferable. Why? First of all 360 has a bigger user base for at least one more software cycle. Then , develop a game to fill a DVD should be cheaper than filling up a blu-ray (less detail texture/envirnoments). Finally, a lot of gamers out there seem don't mind about having a inferior PS3 version of the same game. We PS3 owners should vote with our wallets. I personally WON'T buy any multiplatform games that are short changed on PS3. Splinter Cell, ALL EA games, etc. Stop buying those 2nd rated PS3 games and teach those greedy unprofessional game developers a lesson!
im not saying that the ps3 is sronger, but if it really is stronger and the developers max out all of the ps3's potential, wont they have to downgrade games for it to play smoothly on the 360? i guess that we will soon know what system is stronger! I choose the wii
No where does he say LAIR can run on the Xbox360 and the fact is it cant because of one crucial hardware, the Cell. LAIR is looking to be one of the most chaotic games thats coming out on a next gen system. How they managed to get dozens of dragons in the air and thousands of troops on screen at the same time is just crazy.
the 360 and ps3 are different! are all you fanboys happy now!
tbh developers have said from the beginning to make the game on for the ps3 1st then port it to the ps3 because of the cell cpu. all i have 2 say is i would prefer th cell over the 3 core ppc because developers can use the spu's for better light lighting, explosions, audio ect ect
Everything out right now for 360 and PS3 can probably run on the other system. 360 owners might say PS3 could never run Gears, but considering PS3 is running UT3, and it's supposed to look better than Gears even at this early build, I'd say that's an invalid argument. Yea, I would real exclusive games that can only run on either console won't come for a while.
"but considering PS3 is running UT3, and it's supposed to look better than Gears even at this early build" Where do you guys come up with this nonsense? No-one (in previews and interviews) has said UT3 is currently looking better than Gears of War, except certain gamers on forums for their own reasons. It's a typical internet myth. Anyway, like Annony above, you two are right that it will be years before these consoles reach their full potential, therefore with appropriate coding, each can run the games seen on the other console.
Except for the excellent water (I just hope they tidy up that explosion ripple, since it looks poor imo), this game just doesn't impress me, and it really doesn't look like fun to play. For me it's a glorified tech demo from a dev aiming to prove what they can do on the PS3 first, and then create a good game second. Of course Vietone, you've been hyping Lair and Cell from the start, that's your opinion, but I'm not seeing anything in Lair which couldn't be achieved on the 360. So of all the high profile PS3 games coming out this year, Lair is at the bottom of the list for me. Perhaps I'll be pleasently surprised. :)
"the fact is it cant because of one crucial hardware, the Cell." I do agree with Onetoomany that you're a bit too hyped over Cell. In the end, it's just a processor, nothing more nothing less. It's weaker than the 360 CPU for general code, stronger for floating-point, that's it. So there is nothing Cell is doing which couldn't be done on the 360, even if scaled down. You could argue whether Lair on the 360 would be as good, whether there'll be as many charactors/objects on screen, whether the world will be as large or the water as dynamic, but whatever it is, Lair COULD be brought to the 360. In fact, from what I'm seeing of the gameplay, it could even be brought to the Wii (with much less detail of course).
the arguement that Lair is what it is because of cell, and that it may not be the same on the 360 is fairly valid. i watched a dev. walkthrough vid.. the dev said the buildings, and the high level of detail on them is created by the cell through progressive mesh - RSX isn't involved here. the dev went onto say that progressive mesh in real time was close to impossible on past hardware...he went on to say that in this current gen he doesnt think there are other systems that it can be done on. thats not to say the game couldn't be made on the 360, it would maybe take different development methods.
"thats not to say the game couldn't be made on the 360, it would maybe take different development methods" Correct, you have to take into account the differences between the hardware. That doesn't mean it can't be done, just that it has to be done differently. The same applies to techniques in 360 games when ported to the PS3. Don't be so impressed by the techniques mentioned, since there are many ways of achieving the same effect. Besides, you should take everything Julian says about his games with a big pinch of salt. He is one of those console exclusive devs who is always boasting about what they can do on the hardware that no-one else can (or has done) and how it can't be done on other game engines and on other consoles. Last gen, he said exactly the same about Rogue Squadron on the GC, claiming it was impossible to do on the XBox because the GC was more efficient, because unified memory was a problem and other reasons. He even laughed at the XBox, saying he'd eat a broom if the XBox could run the game as good as it runs on the GC. But later in the gen, he _finally_ admitted that the XBox was more powerful than the GC and therefore RS could be done on the XBox afterall.
I'm not saying this applies only to Julian and Factor 5, you should be skeptical of similar comments coming from ALL console exclusive developers (i.e. Forza 2 devs said ONLY the 360 could handle everything they're doing in the game), because what they say is more about pleasing and representing their masters, and is therefore baised towards the console they're developing on . :)
If you listen to the developer Walkthrough Video on Gametrailers then you'll hear him say that only the PS3 and Cell is capable of the graphics and effects seen in Lair so far. PS3 is being forced to have Crappy ports because of the lower performance achievable on 360. It's like a developer producing games on Wii then porting to 360. If games were developed for PS3 first we would see a big difference in quality on both systems. Why do we have to suffer because of Greed and less powerful consoles. I think I'm going to boycott crapy ports and just stay the hell away, most third party games are crap anyway.
"If you listen to the developer Walkthrough Video on Gametrailers then you'll hear him say that only the PS3 and Cell is capable of the graphics and effects seen in Lair so far." And Forza devs say only the 360 is capable of running the game to that quality. Gee, now why would console exclusive developers say that? Hmmmm. ;) "PS3 is being forced to have Crappy ports because of the lower performance achievable on 360." No it's not. Last gen the PS2 was the lead console for most multi-format game developement, and yet it was the XBox which tended to had the best version because it was more powerful. If the power difference was as some of you believe this gen, then it should be the PS3 seeing the better version of multi-format games and not the 360. Because this is not happening, some of you are looking for reasons. Yes if a game if being coded to make FULL use of the PS3 architecture exclusively first, then of course it will be more difficult to port to the 360. But multi-format games are not programmed exclusively for one console and then ported to another, they are programmed with all versions in mind, even if it leads on a certain console. "Why do we have to suffer because of Greed and less powerful consoles." Firstly, game devs are doing nothing that YOU wouldn't do if you were in their position, since in the end, it IS about making money. Secondly, the PS3 is not suffering because of the 360, it's suffering due to certain design choices. However, as devs learn more about each console, this will become less of a problem in future, but right now, it's the PS3's design and not the 360 which is holding it back in multi-format games.
did you even read the article?
I agree with the post above, however crappy port DO happen, just look at splinter cell. The game looks like garbage on the ps3 yet really good on the 360. Strange, no. Game devs are just worried about making the bucks to pay for the bills which is understandable but at the same time you would think a little commitment to give fans the best their respective system could handle would be done. Yet at the end they say, "Well the hardware is hard to code for, so we'll just give you whatever we feel is good." If that were the case, why not just leave the title a 360 exclusive? It was already out for the ps2 at 40 bucks cheaper and looked damn close to what the PS3 version did. As far as Lair on the 360, you have to take into consideration, games like this and Gears of War are made to play to their home system's strengths so porting them over not only would be hard but alot of content would left out because of hardware limitations.
I do think Gears is a beautiful game, but here's the "nonsense" you wanted. http://ps3.gamespy.com/playstation-3/unreal-tournament-2007/771700p1.html and http://www.gamespot.com/ps3/action/unrealtournament2007/news.html?sid+6164873+mode+previews. You coulda found this easily by yourself, but maybe you didn't want to see it. Yes. At LEAST as good as Gears. I don't know why you gotta sweat it though, because UT3 is coming to the Box too.
"No it's not. Last gen the PS2 was the lead console for most multi-format game developement, and yet it was the XBox which tended to had the best version because it was more powerful" I have one game for you: MGS2. "Firstly, game devs are doing nothing that YOU wouldn't do if you were in their position, since in the end, it IS about making money. Secondly, the PS3 is not suffering because of the 360, it's suffering due to certain design choices." NO. PS3's design choice has nothing wrong with it. It's a highly tuned SIMD 3D graphics number crunching beast. The problem is it designed VERY different from anything esle out there. M$ always design their consoles based on PC. AS the majority of western games are originated from PC root one way or the other, porting between Xboxes and PC is straight forward. That's not the case for PS3. If they want to do a proper PS3 version they have to do it from ground up. Most developers don't commit to that. I agree with "Voice of reason", some developers obviously don't give a ***** about releasing an inferior PS3 port. I see that as the lack of professionalism. Read the interview of the Raiden Gaiden Sigma. Japanese generally are more commit on doing their best and they take pride of what they can acheive. They care for more than money. Developers like EA and whoever make Splinter Cell should be ashamed.
CELL is far superior than X360 CPU, that is a fact, you already can see a lot of projects being built around PS3 CELL, medical applications, parallel calculus, 3D rendering without RSX help, ray tracing. LAIR is not a 2x2 m2 game with up to 8 players, this thing is big and it will have at least Gears graphical quality but in a much bigger landscape and zero popins, Oblivion for 360 anyone? I am beginning to think that inclusion of DVD in x360 is going to be the WORSE decision ever. I mean, streaming textures is the way to go, Gears is one example, but Gears is a small game in every way. Something as big as LAIR will need a much bigger space than a 8G dvd provides.
You fanboys are honestly pathetic. You will do anything to bring the PS3 down and try to prove its better or that it can't do anything the 360 can't, i'm not even going to address some of the things you guys said, you dont know what you are talking about and you use arguements such as blah blah he boasts about sony, but ummmm any person for microsoft doesnt? so if he says it can't be down on 360 it can be? why cause you said so? because your a professional game developer like him? and when microsoft says 360 can only do this its true? wow..
when making games for PS3. EA and Sony has a partnership, every from EA get released, at worst, the same day than x360 counterpart. Splinter "crappy port" Cell:DA is the best example of not love for PS brand. From the very early PS2 days, SC xbox has been superior. Before, some argued that PS2 were not capable enough (GOW, Okami and others showed the opposite) but what is the excuse now? we must wait for the "many-times-delayed" R6:Vegas and the "delayed-enough" GRAW2, to see if this is a trend or not. I hope not, because Assassin's creed comes from Ubisoft.
Straight from a Gamespot hands on preview. Not enough can be said for the visuals. The game looks spectacular, and it's quite possibly the best Unreal Engine 3 game that we've seen to date. Considering that this list includes last year's Gears of War, that's high praise indeed. The rocky terrain looks rugged and jagged, while the character and vehicle models are just incredible. The action remained incredibly smooth, even in the biggest battle, though we were playing on high-end PCs.
you'll know that the future of games will be developed for the PS3 first and then ported for the 360. It explains everything, by this fall you guys will see the difference in games. It makes perfect since now. Now I see why Dead Rising is not going PS3, nothing to do with loyalty, just too many headaches to port over. 10 to 1 Dead Rising 2 will be a PS3 release, then ported.
with OneTooMany. As everyone here probably knows already I am a PS3 fan... but his statement is accurate. "For me it's a glorified tech demo from a dev aiming to prove what they can do on the PS3 first, and then create a good game second." It is at the bottom of my list too... maybe after i've finished with Heavenly Sword, MGS, FFXIII (no one even knows when these games are coming out) and a couple of NBA titles that i always play... maybe that's when i get Lair... it's not in my immediate gaming plans at all.
Hail Hitler. We can now commit humane crimes once again, but on a video game. I can't wait to kill so many innocent civilians and become the next Adolf Hitler. I will kill every Jew in this game. Hail Hitler!
Except most of a game engine uses floating point. All of the physics and audio processing is floating point. The only thing that isn't is AI, and that's what the PPC core is for.
I want point you one game, I dont need more than one, to debunk your arguments, PREY. PC and Xbox360 are much more alike than x360 and PS3, and even so an engine created initially for the PC and ported later to x360, showed that PREY worked better in PC than x360. Now you want tell us than if a devel make a game with x360 in mind it WOULD run better in PS3 if PS3 is more powerful. Oh please.
just wondering?
It's HEILyou inbreed nuttchugging moron. Sich Heil. If this is a joke....please please.....proper grammar. Did you go to Evlyn Woodhead's Sped Riddin Corse?
Yup, PS3 is the machine. This game is encredible, just another exclusive title for the PS3's soon to be steller library. It's sad that these twink ***** fanboys post negativity about the ps3...get off your xbox & get a life you *****in losers. Lol.
Wait to summer & PS3 witch games like MGS or KillZone blows yours mind :) I got X360 but honestly-i play only GoW & nothing more( mor time I spend witch my PSP & Battlefield 2 pc) Cheers for all konsole lovers. Daniel-Poland(i bet that you even dont k'now where is my country) buhahaha :)
But....my english is better than everybody polish ;)
"The action remained incredibly smooth, even in the biggest battle, though we were playing on high-end PCs." So the game runs smoothly on a high end PC? Isn't it supposed to be reviewed when playing on a PS3? The PS3 isn't close in performance to a high-end PC. All the PS3 video I saw had serious framerate issues.
..can be good competition for Lair. l think they should reinvent another Panzer Dragoon game with a free roaming environment.
"Now you want tell us than if a devel make a game with x360 in mind it WOULD run better in PS3 if PS3 is more powerful. Oh please" If a game is developed with ONE console in mind, then the other versions are basically PORTS! That's the difference. For games designed from the BEGINNING to be multi-format, they are designed with ALL the consoles in mind. So Prey debunks nothing. The point is, you can't claim EVERY game which runs better on the 360 than the PS3 is due to PC ports or PC-like code. I'm not denying that you can have bad ports, we see that every gen, but the point is, the strongest console should be at least as good was the so-called weakest, even if it's not the lead console, just like the XBox last gen when the PS2 (and occationally the GC) was the lead console for developement. Also, the PS3 has a PC based GPU, the games use OpenGL for the graphics and they use C/C++ for the programming language. So please don't make out that the PS3 is an altogether completely new architecture for developers to work on. Yes Cell requires more work because of the SPus, but the PS3 has more in common with the PC than some here like to admit. :|
"I have one game for you: MGS2." And I have one word for you: PORT! I'm taking here about multi-format games designed from the _beginning_ for multiple consoles. Ports are a completely different thing. We all know you can have good ports and often bad ports. Need I say more about ports? BTW MGS2 was a rather good port on the XBox. It often looked better than the PS2 version, but the way it handled particles was much worse, leading to slowdown not seen in the PS2 version for level featuring rain. "NO. PS3's design choice has nothing wrong with it." Stop looking for what isn't there. I didn't say there was anything wrong with it, I said design CHOICES are behind some of the problems seen in PS3 versions of multi-format games. RAM is a good example. If on the 360 devs need 300MB for textures and the rest for code, they can do so. On the PS3, they are limited to 250MB, hence the lack of detail seen in the PS3 version of Splinter Cell. Therefore devs will need to learn how to get around this problem on the PS3 (and they will), but it will take time! "M$ always design their consoles based on PC" The PS3 is also designed based upon the PC, an OpenGL based PC at that. Both 360 and PS3 have PPC based cores, except the 360 CPU has 3 whilst Cell has 1 supplimented with SPUs for arithmetic. "I see that as the lack of professionalism." I see that as being sensible. If you were in the position of many of those developers, you WOULD also be doing the same. You say they should build the PS3 version of a multi-format game from the ground up, but have you even thought about the costs and time involved? Fine perhaps for the largest and richest developement teams, but for others, that's just not practical. "Developers like EA and whoever make Splinter Cell should be ashamed". That's debateable, but in the end, it's the gamers who decide with their cash. :)
"CELL is far superior than X360 CPU, that is a fact" Cell is superior for floating-point performance, but it is inferior for general code. That's the fact. "you already can see a lot of projects being built around PS3 CELL, medical applications, parallel calculus, 3D rendering without RSX help, ray tracing." They are not being built around the "PS3 Cell" as you put it. They didn't look at the PS3 and say "Wow guys, we must get our hands on that Cell processor". ;) Cell being used in these areas because it was designed for that use from the START. The PS3 is only one application of the Cell processor.
"You coulda found this easily by yourself, but maybe you didn't want to see it. Yes. At LEAST as good as Gears" I think Onetoomany was challenging your comment that UT3 was looking BETTER than Gears of War. It's running on the same game engine so it should look at least as good, and the links you've found only says it looks at least as good as Gears (which you now conceed yourself), which is different to saying it's looking better! Of course, on PC it will look even better, which is why it does in that Gamespot link you provided (they're not playing the PS3 version).
" But....my english is better than everybody polish " that's the only true point outta all comments here...
wtf, didnt you read? "A lot of companies coming on board now will probably start on the PS3 and move to the 360. The lucky thing for us is we didn%u2019t have to think about the 360 at all." meaning that no x360 version is coming, even less one for the wii. also, this game will always require the sixaxis to move the dragons. the sixaxis is one of the most important parts of this game. no sixaxis? no game...
"wtf, didnt you read?!" Blah blah blah ...now will PROBABLY start...Probably... Uh huh, the comments from a console exclusive developer, one who has always stuck to just ONE console per gen, like the GC last gen and the N64 before. Even then, I question whether there'll be much difference except for PS3 multi-format games being on par with 360 (as they should be, unlike some games we've seen). "meaning that no x360 version is coming, even less one for the wii." What are you talking about? No-one here said there was going to be a 360 or Wii version. "no sixaxis? no game..." LOL! Oh please. The SIZAXIS is doing NOTHING that couldn't be done with the analog sticks. Sure it may be more suited for some control schemes, and less in others, but it is not offering anything which makes it impossible to do without tilt control.
This is totally true, I am glad I bought a Wii, because after the REAL console war b/w the ps3 and 360, I might choose one, but for now I can enjoy my Wii- maybe after several price drops will i see a PS3 or 360... meanwhile I can read dumb arguments in which people fabricate false facts from what they believe. In reality, I think the PS3 is doing better than the 360, I mean 9 mil console for a year and a half is pathetic. By the way, I love how the arguments are about 360 and ps3, THE Wii is friendly competition, seeing as it's so affordable it complements PS3 and/or 360.
"I mean 9 mil console for a year and a half is pathetic." Not pathetic, especially given the price. You think the $499-$599 PS3 is going to sell much more in a year? It's not exactly flying off the shelves right now at the current price.
"so if he says it can't be down on 360 it can be? why cause you said so? because your a professional game developer like him? and when microsoft says 360 can only do this its true? wow.." I believe you're referring to Gamer. Seems you can't you understand what you read. He said; "And Forza devs say only the 360 is capable of running the game to that quality. Gee, now why would console exclusive developers say that? Hmmmm. ;)" It's obvious to anyone with a decent grasp of english that he's actually laughing at the comments console exclusive developers make about their games and about other consoles. In otherwords, you should be sceptical of the Forza devs comment that the game can only run on the 360, just as you should be about Factor 5 on Lair on the PS3 only. So you want to take the word of these devs as the gospel truth? Can't you see why you should be sceptical of such comments from console EXCLUSIVE devs? Hmmm.
WHY ARE YOU ALL OVER BILL GATES NUTS????? I hate fanboys just play the damn games and SHUT UP! LOL
Yeah, the article really doesn't say anything that sounds like either console can do so much that the other console can't. Just that the PS3 is easier to code for from scratch than from previously created code for another platform, and that future multi-platform releases will most likely be produced with that fact in mind. Nothing scandalous there.
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