lol, they dont want it already. Immersion is like the annoying carpet cleaner salesman.



If they wanted rumble they would have did it already, face it they blew a huge relationship by going to court...



Rumble isnt needed, its been done to death and thus far hasnt been what sells games.

I for one will miss the rumble feature. It really adds depth to racing games and FPS. Games like Ico and Rez won't be the same without it. They both use the feature correctly and not as an after thought.



This whole things sucks for the consumer, but I am glad that Sony stuck to their guns though. Maybe they can figure out a cost effective way to introduce dual schock into the SIXAXIS controller in the near future.

i can say rite now i wont miss it even if it's something nice too throw in. a motion detection system seems to me, will add more fun too sum games an like the fella said above (he mentioned rez) that game does own w/ vib but theres not a hole lota games that's ever needed vib like that

Immersion gets no sympathy from me though. They didn't even develope the duel shock tech- their patent is on the CONCEPT of force feedback. So it's not even like Sony stole their technology...



If i were sony I would demand that Immersion drop the 90 million dollar lawsuit and then maybe consider buying a license to use the rumble tech. otherwise, Immersion can go ***** themselves... actually they might already have done that.



I'll be conservative and estimate that the PS3 will sell 60 million PS3's x 2 controllers per console x $5 license fee = $600 million... OUCH



yeah its only a rough estimate but 90 million vs 600 million... hmmm... Good call Immersion, way to bite the hand that feeds you.



(PS- feel free to criticize the model... it's just an estimate that I spent 2 minutes thinking about... have at it)

Silly immersion, sounds like they dug themselves a deep enough pit. They burned that bridge to the ground.

Freakin idiots! gosh!



- id rather play with a keyboard and mouse any day. hopefully they wont have rumble anytime soon.

Isn't the whole point of the lawsuit that Sony wasn't paying Immersion in the first place, so they in fact aren't losing any money?



Anyway, I'm glad Sony is completely ignoring Immersion, and I hope they continue to do so. Patenting concepts like they did is just as bad as patenting software, maybe even worse. If Immersion had its own console with rumble, I would understand, but the whole situation is just nonsense.



For those people who just can't live without rumble, I'm sure Pelican or MadCatz or one of those companies will license the technology and come out with a rumble controller to try and cash in on Sony's refusal.

>"i've been playing games on my PC lately (FPSes to boot), and i don't notice that the rumble is gone."



Since when has rumble been an integral part of the PC's FPS experience? You wouldn't notice rumble is missing on the PC because it wasn't there to begin with. Mouse and keyboards has a completely different feel to a controller, one which doesn't really allow for rumble to be included in a way which is practical.



>"i played some PS3 games also, and i honestly didn't realize the rumble was gone. it was much more enjoyable for me to control the ship in Warhawk with the tilt functionality (which i didn't think would work as well as it did), than to feel my controller go "boom" when i take damage. rumble had it's time. that time has passed."



Naturally, if it's a new experience for you, then you'll enjoy it more to begin with. However, I've used tilt controllers for the PC over the years, and really, I found it to be a novelty that soon wore off, and I went back to using typical control methods (mouse and keyboard or joystick).



With the slight lag of built-in tilt mechanisms in such controllers, controlling vehicles seems to work best, such as arcade racers and flight games (where the lag can be disguised as momentum). Hence in 1998, MS's tilt controller (Freestyle Pro) came with the racing game Motorcross Madness, and for the PS3, the most prominent examples of tilt control has been for flight based games (Warhawk and Lair). It's no coincidence that these are the PS3 games where the most use has been made of tilt control because these are the types of games which I found to work best with my PC tilt controllers.



For other genres, tilt doesn't work quite as well, and because of lag, certainly isn't suitable for a game like GT-HD or GT5 where fast and accurate control is required. Gamers like me will be using the analog sticks for the GT games as before, only without rumble. :(



Regarding rumble, it's very easy to play it down and act like it offers very little to gaming, but I've found it to be a great feature over the years, such as for driving games, where it gives a feeling of the car being in contact with the road (especially useful for triming fractions of a second off your lap times) and for shooters where rumble gives instant feedback when you're being hit, which is useful since you sometimes don't notice your health going down until it's too late (very useful online).



More recently, games like Rockstar's Table Tennis for the 360 have made great use of the rumble feature, and reviewers have commented on how much it adds to the game;



http://uk.gamespot.com/xbox360/sports/tabletennis/review.html



Quote: "One of the most subtle features, and arguably one of the best little details in Table Tennis, is the use of force feedback. As you charge up your return shot and use the left analog stick to aim it, the controller will start to rumble as your aim gets closer to the edge of the table, giving you a tactile sense for when you need to stop pushing toward the edge. It makes the aiming simultaneously more intuitive and more effective, and it's so simple and so brilliant that it will be disappointing if the next crop of regular tennis video games doesn't implement a similar feature."



So the idea that it's had it's time is rather short sighted. It's as useful now as it's always been, regardless of Sony's position on the matter. Next you'll be saying analog sticks have had their time because of tilt control. ;)



>"how many games nowadays do you see happily declaring "Look, this game Rumbles!" back in the PS1 era that's how game cases looked when rumble came out."



Just because a feature is taken for granted by gamers, it doesn't make it less valuable. :|



No-one seemed to have any issues with the rumble feature in controllers prior to Sony announcing the lack of this feature from the PS3 controller, then suddenly it was all hands on deck as certain gamers set out to prove that rumble isn't needed.



I just hope rumble returns in future in an updated

Someone else will release a controller for it so if you REALLY cant live without it then you could get that. As for me I BARELY EVER notice that my controller is on vibrate until i play tony hawks pro skater in which case it annoys me on a long grind and I turn it off. Force feedback is great and all but its not that amazing of a feature.

thanks. i didn't feel like answering his blatant ignorance. i mean, sheesh, anyone with a brain would know i was being facetious (look it up, 18, i know you'll have trouble with that one).



to 19: as an experiment, i've been playing Shadow of the Colossus with rumble turned off. i was expecting a major difference in the feel of the game, as it's usage of rumble is one of the best.



oddly enough, in less than a minute, i didn't even remember it was off, as the game is still incredible, even without the rumble. i've battle 3 colossi this way, and i honestly didn't miss the rumble. the music, sound effects, and overall atmosphere are infinitely more important to the gaming experience than a vibration effect that can become really uncomfortable.



as for rumble not being a part in PC gaming, i just started playing games on the PC in the past year. i come from a 20 year history of playing games on consoles. i've been using rumble since it first came out. you think i'd notice then, if suddenly the games i was playing didn't rumble, PC or console. the big surprise for me is that i didn't notice. i don't even care that rumble is gone. in the past few games i've been playing lately, i turn it off. i don't miss it. and i actually use a control pad to play certain games on my PC (like City of Heroes, for example. i hate the mouse and keyboard setup for that game). it's an 3rd person action game, where it seems rumble would be a natural fit, but it's not hurting because of the lack of rumble.



it really doesn't add anything to the game in the significant way. i wasn't a big fan of motion sensing gaming (even from the Wii), until i saw it's usage in the PS3. even the limited sixaxis usage can be used in clever ways (i'm sure moving Snake around on his back in MGS4 will use the tilt. as well as controlling the barrel when he bowls over those soldiers. all rumble would add to that was a hum when you hit them).



the DS or PSP don't rumble, and it doesn't keep the quality games on them from being any less quality. vibration is not needed. sure, for those that grew up in the Playstation/N64 era, rumble seems like a necessity, but those that have been playing games since 1985 remember a time when rumble wasn't even concieved, and we understand that it's not essential to a games enjoyment.



i'd never say analog sticks have had their day, because they are vital to the gaming experience.



having played Warhawk first hand, i can say that there was no lag when controlling the ship with the tilt. i was expecting it, and in fact, searching for it, but it wasn't there, or so slight that it wasn't perceptable.



yes, MS had a tilt controller in 1998. the key word being "1998." it is now 2006. technology changes and evolves, as us in the gaming world should know all to well. Pelican had a tilt controller for the PS1 back in 1996, but it didn't work too well due to the technology at the time. if Nintendo can base a whole gaming console around motionsensing gameplay, i'm think it's safe to say that motionsensing technology has vastly improved.



i don't take vibration for granted. i turn it off.



basically, liking rumble or not is simply a preference. some people prefer rumble, some don't. ultimately, a 3rd party will develop a rumble controller for the PS3 if Sony doesn't give in to Immersion's demands, and people will stop complaining. if people don't buy a PS3 because the controller lacks rumble, then they seriously need to think about what it is about gaming they actually enjoy.

>"to 19: as an experiment, i've been playing Shadow of the Colossus with rumble turned off. i was expecting a major difference in the feel of the game, as it's usage of rumble is one of the best."



Rumble on the PS2 is not implemented as well as it is on the XBox controller (it's rather weak and non-descript on the PS2), so if you really want to find out how well rumble can work, I would recommended playing Xbox/360 games. This is not just my view, but shared amoungst many regarding both controllers since the consoles where released. It had improved by the time the XBox was launched and it is even better today.



Equally, no matter how well it is implemented, some gamers will like it some gamers will not. My objection is to the attitude of "Well I don't like it therefore it doesn't matter". Well, it may not matter to gamers like you, but for millions of gamers, it does!



>"as for rumble not being a part in PC gaming, i just started playing games on the PC in the past year. i come from a 20 year history of playing games on consoles."



And that says it all really. I've been PC gaming since the late 80s (1988 to be exact!), and I've been gaming since consoles first arrived in our homes in the late 70s, hence I come from a 30 year histroy of playing video/computer games (including the 8-bit and 16-bit micro computers of the 80s). So I've seen PC gaming develope first hand from the beginning, and overall, rumble has never been part of the PC experience, and again, doesn't sit well with mouse and keyboard.



>"it really doesn't add anything to the game in the significant way."



To you perhaps, but to many gamers like myself, it adds very significantly. And I'll go back to the point I made in my previous post, gamers like yourself had NO issues with rumble prior to the lack of it in the PS3 controller. Gamers had a take it or leave it attitude, where those who didn't like rumble simply didn't use it. Now, suddenly the arguement has extended to claiming that it adds very little to games, it's a thing of the past, it's pointless etc, comments which would not have emerged if the PS3 had rumble. If anything, gamers would be argueing online over which controller has the BEST rumble!



>"...but those that have been playing games since 1985 remember a time when rumble wasn't even concieved, and we understand that it's not essential to a games enjoyment."



We? I've been gaming since the 70s, so stop generalising. No one is saying it's "essential to a games enjoyment", millions of gamers like myself say it adds greatly to OUR experiences of games, and therefore will be missed on the PS3.



>"having played Warhawk first hand, i can say that there was no lag when controlling the ship with the tilt. i was expecting it, and in fact, searching for it, but it wasn't there, or so slight that it wasn't perceptable."



The plane has momentum, it doesn't mirror the angle of the controller instantly and exactly (just as it wouldn't mirror the exact position of the analog sticks if used). The tilt effectively controls the flaps and rudder, which will THEN have an effect on the plane. If you rotate the controller anti-clockwise, your plane will eventually follow (turning left), but if you rotate clockwise as fast as you can, the plane will take a moment to rotate to the new position (turning right). THAT is how the lag is hidden in such games, hence the comments in my previous post.



>"yes, MS had a tilt controller in 1998. the key word being "1998." it is now 2006. technology changes and evolves"



Of course it does, but tilt mechanisms are limited by the way they need to work (using gravity), hence lag is still present in the PS3 controller. I bought the MS controller in about 2000, and another controller in 2002 (Saitek), and tried Logitech's controller too. You may be surprised to know that gravity hasn't really changed since 1998. ;). Yes improvements will be made over the years (same with rumble), but internal tilt mechanisms will never be able to completely eliminate lag.



>

>"basically, liking rumble or not is simply a preference. some people prefer rumble, some don't."



Correct, which is why if YOU don't like rumble, then you're going to say it adds little if anything to gaming, but that doesn't mean you're right, since although it doesn't add anything to you, it does add greatly for others.



>"ultimately, a 3rd party will develop a rumble controller for the PS3 if Sony doesn't give in to Immersion's demands, and people will stop complaining."



Rumble works in conjunction with support in the game. Developing a rumble controller means nothing unless developers support rumble in their games.



>"if people don't buy a PS3 because the controller lacks rumble, then they seriously need to think about what it is about gaming they actually enjoy."



Agreed, but then, no-one is really saying that here. :)

There are other issues about tilt that I haven't even begun to touch on yet (don't have time right now... off to work), issues which some here will eventually realise for themselves after they play their PS3 games in their homes with tilt in future (like I did with my tilt controllers).



So I'll be back later... :)

>"Ok first off someone said something dumb about tilt and lag. I could see lag happening in a controller that uses 2.4 ghz wireless but PS3's sixaxis' are bluetooth. no lag."



*Sigh* I'm not talking about the communication between the controller and the console, I'm talking about the time it takes for the tilt control mechanisim to respond to changes in the angle of tilt.



If the controller is horizontal and then you VERY quickly rotate the controller left to 54.5 degrees, the controller doesn't instantly register an angle of 54.5 degrees, because the mechanism inside has to gradually adjust to the new position. This takes a finite amount of time to complete, it's quick but not quick enough to go unnoticed, unlike mouse and analog sticks where the new position is registered almost instantly. That's the problem with internal tilt mechanisms. So for slow movements, lag is less noticeable, but for rapid movements, the lag is noticeable and will be a problem for certain types of game.



Hence for games where there is a natural lag because of momentum, such as flight games, the extra lag of the controller is 'lost'. However, where fast and accurate responce is required, the analog sticks will be FAR better.



I know some of you want to believe that tilt control is perfect and therefore suffers from none of the problems I've mentioned, perhaps some of you think it's anti-sony to even consider the possible downsides of tilt control, however many of you (myself included) will have a PS3 within the next 6 months, and the issues I've described here will become clear to all once you've experienced tilt control for yourself over long periods in your own homes.



So to repeat what I said earlier, it's no coincidence that the biggest examples of tilt control being used as the main control method in PS3 games have been in the types of games I've mentioned (both Warhawk and Lair are essentially flight games).



There are still issues I can raise about tilt control, but perhaps I'll leave that for later. :)

i'll definitely try to keep this short, as i try not to write such gigantic dissertations, but i can't help myself.



the reason why i probably come off as a major Sony supporter is because, ever since E3, there have been a lot of unfounded BS being spewed around, most of it stemming from the price.



Nintendo and Microsoft, even at their lowest points in public and media perception, have not had to deal with the complete and utter loathing and hatred Sony has had to put with in the past 5 months. i'm assuming it comes simply from being at the top. in the PC world, Microsoft is sort of viewed in a similar, sinister light, but in gaming, there has become no other punching bag than Sony.



i defend them because i haven't forgotten what the past ten years of my gamer life have given me, and most of it has come from a Sony console (like, say 99%, not counting my NES, SNES, and Genesis).



people have gone turncoat so fast it's amazing. they will also prove to be the biggest hypocrites on the planet once Sony starts producing those killer titles that we know are coming in about a year or two, from First and Third Party developers.



if Nintendo and Microsoft were being blasted the way Sony has been, i'd defend them too, with the same fervor. i'm a fan of video games and all consoles, even when they are far from perfect, as long as they give me some memorable gaming experiences. Sony is definitely far from perfect, but i don't see the doom and gloom many predict for the company. the Playstation brand is a powerful one, and i don't see it going away anytime soon.