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Havok 4.5. Enjoy ALL your SPUs in FULL, PS3

Posted Jan 23, 2007 at 9:14AM EST by QJ Staff

Listed in: PS3 Tags: Havok, playstation 3 updates

Avert your eyes, children, that buzz saw will bleed your eyes out. - Image 1

Havok announces that its flagship middleware engine, used on many a PS3 (e.g., MotorStorm), Wii, and Xbox 360 game (not to mention PC, of course) is now at v4.5. "Havok 4.5 allows game developers to scale game content to thousands of dynamically-driven game objects and characters, harnessing the full power and speed of next generation architectures."

Now for what puts the .5 in 4.5, so to speak: Havok also revealed that this version is fully optimized for the PS3, capable of harnessing the FULL power of ALL the SPUs. "Havok architecture now scales strongly across all SPUs and runs between 5 and 10 times faster than Havok 4.0 for a typical game scene on the PS3."

If you're trying to get the vague idea of what Havok 4.0 on the PS3 looks like, we invite you to click on this backlink, to be whisked away to last year's article about Havok 4.0 at CEDEC. The highlight there was that, according to a presentation slide, Havok 4.0 on a PS3 Cell ran comparable to a triple-core PC. Now, if Havok's PR is to be believed, multiply that by 5 to 10.

Now if we only had a video, that would make our day.

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The Cell is a processor. It can crunch numbers faster abd better then any processor before it.

There for for Physics and AI it will be better. With all the power in it, they can have more stuff thats dynamic.

Remember that game released long ago on the PC that used a add-on physics card. Imagine the PS3 being able to easily do physics the way that add-on card could do but better.

So we will probably start seeing more stuff flying around, hopefully devs will realize that destructible maps is something that every game with explosions should have.

# anywayz — Guest 2007-01-23 13:25

probably not 100, i dont think an engine made in such short time is THAT advanced to harness all, it just makes using like 60 perccent much easier, since most games right now use only the PPE

# Actually... — Shatterdome 2007-01-23 13:44

It is a beast for physics and geometry calculations, but not for AI....Considering all the SPU's lack ANY type of branch prediction, they cannot be used for AI....which leaves the 1 general purpose core of the PS3 to handle AI...compared to 360's 3 cores....

As far as "unlocking" the power, for physics, it's pretty straightforward , and there are no real cheats to it.....the SPU's crunch numbers in order, physics is pure in order number crunching.....so of course it will be a physics beast, if you are using all the spu's for physics that is....

# ^^^ Correct — Guest 2007-01-23 13:50

"beast for physics and geometry calculations, but not for AI...."

Good to see there are gamers here with some understanding of technology.

# lol — Guest 2007-01-23 13:50

we havent harnessed the power yet. we have an engine that CAN harness the power. we still need to wait for the developers to LEARN how to use the engine to harness the power ;)

# ? — Guest 2007-01-23 13:54

There are no PS3 games using only the PPE and no SPEs. :| Where did you get that idea from?

You can argue about how many and how well the SPEs are being used, but they are certainly not idle in 'most games' on the PS3.

# i know — Guest 2007-01-23 14:00

i know.....

i just wanted to say that

# i know — Guest 2007-01-23 14:01

i know.....

i just wanted to say that

# Actually — Guest 2007-01-23 14:03

It is good for AI, read on how the thing works for petes sakes

# i know — Guest 2007-01-23 15:55

i know.....

i just wanted to say that

# This actually goes hand-in-hand with the data — Guest 2007-01-23 18:35

provided by IBM. It was shown that the Cell processor, when used to its full potential, performs about 30 times faster than 3.2 Ghz G5 processors (which are among the top PC CPUs).

# Oh please Dom! — Guest 2007-01-23 19:51

"It is good for AI, read on how the thing works for petes sakes"

So enlighten us Dom. Provide links which explain why Cell will also be an AI 'monster'.

No-one said it's bad for AI, it will be very good, just like the 360, it's just that AI will benefit mostly from the fast PPE core, not the SPEs. The SPEs will help indirectly however, i.e. in areas where complex calculations need to be carried out and decisions are upon the results, such as line of sight calculations (which slowed down Killzone on the PS2).

So overall, Cell is very good for AI processing but the power of the SPEs does not translate into great AI performance in the way that it does for physics.

# from whats seen so far — lansingone 2007-01-23 20:47

havok is only good for physics, on the other hand unreal 3 is good for graphics. so you can pick to have graphics sure to wow everyone, or have things fall over or tumble real nice

# ...... — Guest 2007-01-23 23:02

What if they sum how combined them......

# This is Excellent.. — Guest 2007-01-23 23:10

It Wont Be Long Before we See the Excellence of This,The Next-Gen is All About "Physics" and "Complex AI".

The 360 Cant Handle This Havok 4.5...Or at least Not as Good as the PS3.

The Havok 4.0 was Designed to PC 3 Cores Processores,Now If We know that the PC 3 Core is More Powerfull Than The Stripped Down 3 Core Xbox360 Processor....Then The 360 Is More Suited to Havok 4.0.

This is 5-10 Times More PowerFull.....Means Physics In PS3 games will Be 5-10 Times More Powerfull Than The 360.

Not to Mention that the PS3 is Superior In "Complex AI Calculations"....Because the PS3 SPU,s are Designed To Handle Non-Integral Digits Calculations at Incredible Speed...The 360 cant Come Close.

That is Why...I think The Graphical-Side for the Systems will Be comparable....But the PS3 will Fly-Ahead in "Physics" and "Complex AI"...

Wait For Havok 5.0 ;)

# say fanboys ? — Guest 2007-01-24 00:39

The funny this is YOU are the only person to mention the 360 here so what does that make you?.

# NO CHANCE — Guest 2007-01-24 00:45

If you are talking about Crysis the PC game then you are mistaken it is not a Cpu problem for the PS3 or 360 but a RAM one which no amount of CPU is going to be able to do anything about.

Recommended Requirements:

CPU: Dual-core CPU + no prob for the consoles

Graphics:/ATI X1800XT + Ram danger number 1

RAM: 1.5Gb + serious Ram danger number 2

# times ? — Guest 2007-01-24 00:48

You wanted to say it 3 times you must like the word THAT quite a lot eh.

# No facts here then — Guest 2007-01-24 00:56

FACTS not GUESSWORK,Ficti on or predictions please.ONE thing though at the end of the day do you really believe that this year or more old CPU is that advanced that the main players Intel and Athlon just sat back and did nothing LOL its all about the way things are worded when it comes to consoles cpu claims of power and anyway did you not read what it says at the bottom of the article ? -

if Havok's PR is to be believed.

# More ignorance from you I see. ;) — Guest 2007-01-24 01:35

You will never learn because you don't want to.

>"The 360 Cant Handle This Havok 4.5...Or at least Not as Good as the PS3."

The 360 can easily handle Havok 4.5. It's a physics API, not a game or application, therefore it's about how well it performs physics calculations in games, not how the consoles can 'handle' the API. Overall, the PS3 should be able to perform physics a little better than the 360.

>"This is 5-10 Times More PowerFull.....Means Physics In PS3 games will Be 5-10 Times More Powerfull Than The 360."

This is so ignorant it's not even funny. Each core in the 360 offers about the same floating-point performance of one SPE, and with hyperthreading, about 1.3-1.5 times the performance of one SPE. With 6 SPEs available to PS3 games (one is reserved for the OS), this means the 360 offers at worse, half of the floating-point performance of Cell, or at best up to 75% of the floating-point performance of Cell. This of course is all on paper, but just the same it shows that the 360 is more than capable. On the flip side, on paper, 360 offers 3 times the performance of Cell for running general game code.

So your claim of 5-10 times more powerful than the 360 is fairy tale nonsense. Really Broken_Hero, a little bit of common sense would have told you that if the difference was so vast, then at least ONE dev would have been aware of it by now. Instead we have devs saying the PS3 is _slightly_ more powerful than the 360.

# Hmmm.... — Guest 2007-01-24 01:58

The Crysis Engine Uses Streaming...If they Can Use the PS3 HDD as Virual Ram,And Increase Streaming Speed...They Can Save Some Ram..

But Ofcourse....It Will Never Look Like the PC Version,The Only Way for the PS3 to Make Such Graphics is that a Very Talanted Developer Make a Special Engine Built For the PS3...Not For the PC.

But Crysis Physics Will Run as Good as The PC Version on the PS3

# :/ — Guest 2007-01-24 02:09

I am Sure You Love Assasins Creed...ABC

You Just Suddenly Appear Below My Posts....Its Not Fun you Know :)

"You will never learn because you don't want to."

Actually...It not "Fun" to.... ;)

The Maximum Floating Point Performance for the 360 CPU is 50% of the PS3 CELL "On Paper" since the Tests Were Made Under Testing-Conditions....So We have No Idea Ho Much Is the Difference it Could Be 50% or 60% Or Even 30%....

"Each core in the 360 offers about the same floating-point performance of one SPE, and with hyperthreading, about 1.3-1.5 times the performance of one SPE. "

I,l Be Interested to Know how Did you Conclude these Results...a Link Would Help.

And Next Time..."Cough" Before you Enter...It not Nice ;)

# Oh....BTW — Guest 2007-01-24 02:33

"Each core in the 360 offers about the same floating-point performance of one SPE, and with hyperthreading, about 1.3-1.5 times the performance of one SPE. With 6 SPEs available to PS3 games (one is reserved for the OS), this means the 360 offers at worse, half of the floating-point performance of Cell, or at best up to 75% of the floating-point performance of Cell"

Actually....Its Not Comparing the 3 cores of the 360 to the 6 Available SPUs on the PS3..

The PS3 has a PowerPC CPu that is Similar to one of the 360 3 Cores...

So its 3 Cores against 6 SPUs and the PS3 PowerPC Cpu....Since One of the 360 cores is Similar In Performance to the PS3 Core....Its 2 Cores Against 6 SPUs.. ;)

If your Words to Be Believed and a 360 Core is Equal in Floating Point Performance to a PS3 SPU...It Would Mean the PS3 has 3 Times the Floating Point Performance of the 360.. ;)

"Each core in the 360 offers about the same floating-point performance of one SPE, and with hyperthreading, about 1.3-1.5 times the performance of one SPE."

And i am Still Interested on Hearing More about This....a Few Links Could Help :)

# ^^^Wrong in so many ways^^^ — Guest 2007-01-24 03:06

I'll reply later (busy right now). But here's a thought for you until then. The PPE core in the PS3 does NOT have the same floating-point power of an SPE or one of the 360's cores. It's arithmetic unit is called VMX32 (the standard in PowerPC CPUs), whereas the arithmetic unit in each 360 core is an enhanced version called VMX128.

Hence IBM took their PowerPC processor core and added 8 SPE cores to create Cell, whereas for the 360, they took their PowerPC processor core, enhanced the arithmetic unit and put 3 cores together to create Xenon.

# Beyond — Guest 2007-01-24 03:33

the debate about what console is more powerful or more precisely if x360 is as powerful as PS3, I think the most important thing here is how fast devels are getting used to the multicore arch, specially the asymmetric PS3 design. That is wonderful, more and better parallelized code is the way to get the most of these new processors.

Now after a first gen of gorgeous looking games (MotorStorm, Lair, F1 CE, RFoM, etc) who gave devels a better understanding of what strategies can be employed when programming the PS3, and with new engines like Havok 4.5, a lot of power is yet to be unlocked, without any doubt Crysis graphics will be a no problem.

# branch prediction — Guest 2007-01-24 05:17

"Considering all the SPU's lack ANY type of branch prediction, they cannot be used for AI"

What a peculiar statement.

branching should be minimised by programming techniques if you want to fully optimise code for SPE. This fact by itself says nothing about the what the SPEs can or cannot do. They are 3ghz processors and are you write programs for them. They can balance your checkbook, run AI routines, sort data, calculate physics interactions - and all these tasks can be optimized to make best use of the strengths (vector processing) and minimise weaknesses of the SPEs.

Sigh.

# Well — Guest 2007-01-24 05:23

Only One thing

If the Xenon it's more powerfull than the cell why the next generations servers of IBM will be using CELL architecture instead of Xenon architecture...

# guys guys guys — Guest 2007-01-24 05:58

cool it down. We all know it's about gameplay! so nintendo wins in the end!

By the way, i was totally joking.

# Guest... — Shatterdome 2007-01-24 06:04

I know...but specifically for AI, which requires extensive branching, and branch prediction, the SPU's are practically useless....

# THIS — Guest 2007-01-24 06:06

STOP jumping this post its as boring as hell unless of course you are a nerd or a geek.

# Proxied — Guest 2007-01-24 06:10

Looks like someone is switching proxies as I cant believe it is being jumped so many times myself.

# you know — lansingone 2007-01-24 14:33

what i think is that since cell and xenon are so much the same, that havok 4.5 will give the same boost to both, maybe more for cell. and if not i think they will do the same boost for other processors. also like i said before havok isn't even that great of a game engine since it's only good for physics

# It wont... — Shatterdome 2007-01-24 18:24

be the same for both...the PS3's SPU's are number crunching beasts when fed data in-order, ie. physics equations that never change and just need to be solved with variables X, Y Z.....so of course a physics engine would benefit from this......however, the SPU's lack something called branch prediction, which makes them altogether useless for A.I...this is the difference in the CPU's

360 will not get the same benefit because it uses 3 dual-threaded "general purpose" cores, which don't crunch numbers as well, but have branch prediction (ie. better for AI)....

Unfortunately 360's branch prediction is not the greatest either, so it will not be as good as it could be, but PS3 will be even worse in that department...

http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/cpu/xbox360-2.ars

I beleive that's also the article that confirms that each core is 1.3-1.5 as fast as an SPU as far as straight floating point calculations...

# Reply to the above comment — Guest 2007-01-24 20:33

Please stop putting the branching in as it really means nothing. Branching just makes it possible to shorten the access time. In reality, AI can still be done in a linear order much like physics (to produce realistic experience) instead of just IFing and ORing around even though it's really hard to do so and it requires quite a monster at calculating (which the Cell engine already is). Developers clearly stated that it's HARD to do AI on the Cell, not impossible. Period. If it wasn't the case, even Hideo Kojima wouldn't even dream about simulating real life aspects inside his games... but guess what? He studied the Cell engine and concluded that it is possible to do such a thing.

And as far as it is concerned, even if one core of the XBox360 CPU is truly that fast, it is still a fact that Cell can produce calculations way faster than the total CPU. Why should we care about how one SPU do against one core when it's the whole system that we are concerned about? And as far as this Havok 4.5 thing go, most of you fail to realize that the engine doesn't have to use up all of the Cell engine to use the engine... so if we just tap a few SPUs for physics calculation to achieve the current level of physics we can see in games such as Half-Life 2 and FEAR and then tap the rest for geometry calculating for graphics,... it should get even better. The whole idea is that with all of the SPUs, the PS3 can provide up to 10 times faster physics than how it is currently doing with Havok 4.0... which is using up to 4 or 5 SPUs just for physics... so by off loading the physics calculations for the SPUs, Havok 4.5 makes it possible to use the rest of the PS3 for other things only... and it only means... improvements. And they didn't mention anything about the XBox360 in there but please... the XBox360 is the only thing that has a triple-core CPU right now... are you going to tell me that the test results were not for the XBox360 CPU and were for something else?

# Motorstorm uses Havok 4.5 — Guest 2007-01-27 03:45

I can't provide a link but Motorstorm is using Havok 4.5. It was a collaborated development and Motorstorm is the first implementation of a 4.5 version game.

So don't get your knickers in a knot Broken, it's not huge leap like you would to believe.

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Havok 4.5. Enjoy ALL your SPUs in FULL, PS3

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