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Loot-drop paradoxes: when RPG monsters (don't) drop loot

Posted Jan 23, 2007 at 2:50AM EST by QJ Staff

Listed in: PS3, Wii, PSP, Xbox 360, MMORPG, Nintendo DS, PC Gaming Tags: Blizzard, Neil Gaiman, PS2, Square Enix

RPG fans, gather round. We're going to nitpick a topic to death. (And you know nitpicking is one of RPG fans' favorite hobbies.)

Paradox #1: monsters that don't drop loot. This article was spawned by an article over at WOW Insider that asked why is it when you have a mission to collect ogre brains, few ogres actually drop brains. The world of Blizzard's World of Warcraft is full of liverless boars, brainless ogres, and bloodless orcs.

Paradox #2: monsters drop nonsense loot. Remember how dragons in the first Neverwinter Nights dropped their blood in handy little bottles (complete with decorative covers)?

(Warrior: And with this last arrow I kill you. Dragon: Hang on a sec. Let me bottle up my blood first. You got a needle and tube handy?)

RPG fans have gotten used to the fact that every creature (from blind cave fish to rabid rodents to sea turtles lazing on a beach) carry gold in little bags and elixirs in standard-sized bottle. Some animals even drop swords!

And we spend so much energy to defend our favorite RPG and explain why this is the case, when we could be spending that energy writing feedback to our favorite developer to tell them to put more thought and design into their next RPG.

Is loot-dropping realism too much to ask? "It's a game; it's not supposed to be realistic!" exclaim the echoes. Really? Then what's with the effort to make good scenery, characters that look alive, and amazing storylines that pull you into the story so you'll forget that "it's just a game"? By the way, if you follow those backlinks, you'll see that many new RPG games have evolved to take advantage of new technology, so maybe it's time to universally change the way item drops are done in other "traditional" RPGs?

In Square Enix's Final Fantasy XII for the PS2, for example, monsters do not drop money (called "gil" in the FF universe), but humanoid bad guys do. That's realistic: humans carry wallets while bunny rabbits don't. But there's still the paradox of monsters that don't drop loot - there are fish that don't have scales and rats that don't have fur.

We have a few ideas to deal with the drop rate paradoxes.

RPG tradition tells us that loot isn't dropped if it's been damaged in the battle (WOW Insider tried this track). That explains why there are wolves that don't drop pelts and bats that don't drop wings.
Game developers could also put more thought into which monsters drop which items. They could make a game where animals only drop their body parts (wolves do not have halberds hidden somewhere in their bodies).
Game developers could also stop making monsters that die and leave behind a tidy bottle of blood. We RPG fans expect good story-telling and interesting (but short) sidequests, so why not throw in content in the form of a story arc? First, you get the special bottle, then you get the siphon, and finally, you collect the blood from the monster.
In the book "Neverwhere" by Neil Gaiman, a giant boar has spears, knives, arrows stuck into its body, left behind by the many hunters who have tried to kill the boar. That's an example of an animal that will drop weapons. That makes sense. In other words, if you kill Moby-Dick in your RPG, the whale drops harpoons (at least those that aren't rusty or battle-damaged).

Solution #1: bring in hunter skills. We propose incorporating automatic hunter skill parameters in RPGs. By hunter skills we mean "tracking," "avoiding," and "harvesting." If a character has encountered a type of monster, the character has "experience" with that type of monster, and if you make that character the party leader, the party can "track" or "avoid" the monster. "Tracking" increases the chances of encountering the monster type, while "avoiding" lowers encounter rates for that monster type. Characters can only track and avoid monsters they have encountered before. The more you encounter a creature, the better you get at "tracking" and "avoiding" that creature.

Of course, in this proposal, some characters or classes are better at "tracking" and "avoiding" than others (e.g., your main character is a career soldier but is only an average hunter, the love interest you meet in Act I is a scholar and terrible hunter, the wizard from the small forest village in Act II is a great hunter).

If your party has characters with good "harvesting" skills, you are able to get more out of a monster than others (e.g., you're good at removing skins from dead monsters). This minimizes the battle damage done to loot, so you have higher drop rates.

Solution #2: bring in battle finesse. Your character is a better fighter at higher levels, right? So you aim and attack better. So there should be less battle damage done to loot. Therefore, the higher the level of your character, the higher the chances of getting dropped loot. Besides, you need more loot at higher levels because weapons and armor is more expensive, right?

And that's all for now. We could keep nitpicking more things and throwing out more ideas - and there are a lot more RPGs we could mention for their good points and bad points (like the PSP's Dungeon Siege Throne of Agony, the Xbox 360's Lost Odyssey, Final Fantasy XI...), but you get the main points. What do you guys think? Anybody care to share their ideas about loot-drop paradoxes?

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I don't think that anyone thinks too much about realism while playing a RPG...it may be different when playing a shooter or a sports game, but RPGs are all about fantasy.

The decisions for the loot systems are given by the game mechanics.

I mean, what do you do with 1725643 rat furs? You can't carry them in real-life or they are flooding your inventory which would make the game-experience more annoying.

# loot — Guest 2007-01-23 04:06

Have they seen monster hunter?

# No-one plays an RPG for realism — Guest 2007-01-23 04:19

We can't shove stones made of some kind of radioactive dead people oil into our arm to cast magic spells.

We can't carry swords that weigh 5 times as much as us, or are 4 times our height in length.

We don't grow to 6 times the size of a house just by leaving a city.

Planes can't hover in place.

Animals can't talk.

Dragons dont exist. (Cool as it would be if they did.)

RPG's aren't real, or realistic. If you want to play a realistic game, go play Fifa or something like that, because youu'll only get realism in a sports game.

# Black Wolf dropped laser cannon — Guest 2007-01-23 04:31

I agree with Bob if you're complaining about realism go play fifa making an RPG realistic is stupid who would want to have a Max Item Storage of 10, no level ups and characters that die jumping from 10m height.

# nonsense — Guest 2007-01-23 04:54

i agree with them in some point , but the games are for fun if you turn an RPG too much realistic its boring and tiresome ...

long life the monsters that drops 1000000 gils ! jejejej

# don't pick them up — Guest 2007-01-23 04:55

Just because loot is dropped doesn't mean you need to pick it up. if rat fews are worth selling then yeah pick them up and sell them immediately, but if they're not, then don't pick up 1, not to mention 1,725,643 of them.

# this dude — Guest 2007-01-23 04:56

is a ***** w4nker

# Agree with jakster4u — Guest 2007-01-23 04:57

Monster Hunter is like completely different from those typical RPG statements. I mean, you kill monsters and then "carve" pieces off them (like a veliociprey will drop Vprey hides, skin, and teeth). And nothing is actually useless since everything can be crafted into something else.

# ` — Guest 2007-01-23 05:15

ctrl+f oblivion not found. It has good loot dropping.

# . — Guest 2007-01-23 05:25

Now if only they'd put that much thought and effort into how to run this site better . . .

# yeah — Id 2007-01-23 05:26

This is one of the reasons i love Monster hunter, has alot of realism. Wish they make a sequal for PS3 PC and 360....

But other than that i do agree with Para #1

Specially on the money and weapon parts, since..thats just retarded, but delelopers dont care because we grew accustmed to it...and its easier for them lol, Sadly. But yeah now we have better technology, so i dont really see why there should be problems adding a little more realism.

I personally think that monsters can drop body parts(or skin, teeth, scales, etc.) and those could be SOLD for money or USED in the making of the weapon.

Also instead of monsters actually dropping the weapon(unless like mentioned above with the moby-dic example, where the monster had them already), they could have the key(depending the monster) or are protecting the treasure etc. watever. depends the mob....yeah i went there.

Also my other beef wich only applies to some games like for example FFXI....Animation. The lack of non- combat realism. For say, when you fall off a "Cliff" the character doesnt really have a landing animation, or anything of that sorts. Other than that, in many games TINY TINY 1ft hills that characters cant jump, or easily climb over......is it just lazyness?

LAST THING! this mainly goes out to MMORPGS...

Monsters that look the exactly the same.... just vary by name different name.....

two words.

Blue crabs..

-- that is all. No size changes, Palette change(color), just no change...and they have you fight things like this for MOST of the game and expect you to not get bored..

# lol — Id 2007-01-23 05:37

yup very true lol, but sometimes you do wonder why a character wears the same piece of clothing the whole game, no armor changes, and specially the best part is when they pull their swords out of their ass.

and we are talking about rpgs, nothing to do with FIFA. Just wanting to add " S O M E" Realism to some games, not completely Disable them.

# Eh... — Guest 2007-01-23 06:00

Well, Monster Hunter isn't exactly a pure RPG, either.

# Diablo II Rules!!!. — Guest 2007-01-23 06:13

I dont mind,it doesnt make sense but come on since when RPG's make sense?.

In Guildwars is the only game where monsters leave you stuff that makes sense for example an animal never leave you stuff like weapons only enemy Warriors leave you weapons.And thats why most of the time in guildwars the loot is crap.

# Good game — Guest 2007-01-23 06:17

I picked up to gypceros heads once. It made me do a double take.

# but — Guest 2007-01-23 06:35

dont you already get better loot at higher levels? like in every rpg ever made?

# Hmm — Guest 2007-01-23 06:50

Why is realism so important in a fantasy setting?

Technology does indeed evolve, but ideas generally don't. Is it a crime that I like getting fruit as power ups?

If RPGs became as real as you propose, it'd be a chore to play. The developers would have to make less encounters, give loot in measurements ("You got 210 ccs of blood!"), and/or make the loot value dirt-cheap since otherwise your inventory would get full in an hour.

Next we'll plead for realistic plot involving a convenience store clerk selling the most the store has ever sold with the help of his best friends!

This is an interesting idea, but I don't think that it will enhance the RPG experience. This idea would be better suited for games like Monster Hunter instead.

# All your crates are belong to us. — Guest 2007-01-23 06:59

First of all, good article Max F. It's always nice when someone takes a step back and questions the illogical universe of videogaming. :)

Secondly, sorry about the length of this comment, I just have a lot on my mind. It aint that much spam. ;)

Speaking as a level designer (and a wanna-be gamedesigner :P) though, I'd say the problem isn't unrealistic loot, it's illogical solutions of problems that are mostly based upon the very fine tradition of "we've always done it this way".

Sword-dropping rats? Sure thing, we've seen this kind of stuff ever since Eye of the Beholder. So, hey, we must be used to it! That must be how loot in games work! Right?

Or, lets take the fine, fine, tradition of crates. Everyone just loves crates, especially the guys over at http://www.oldmanmurray.com/features/39.html. Why do we always see crates in videogames, and especially in the FPS-genre? Could it be because the developers have used crates to simply fill out space since, oh I dont know, Doom? Wolf3d? Or flaming barrels, those are cool too, yeah, or exploding barrels, yeah, I'll put them all over my deserted subway level and no one will give a damned that they must have materialized down there because they just couldn't fit through that tiny hole that is the entrance, right? :)

For that matter, huge crates that contain ammo? Who in their right mind would put just one ammoclip in a box? "Yeah, that'd be good, we'll just put one ammoclip here, and, umm, yeah, let's find an empty box for these gold coins... we may not have many valuable items, but we sure have a lot of boxes to put them in, ho ho ho."

Back in the olden days, yeah, I can buy that developers used crates to fill out their game-worlds. Boxes are cheap on memory and look pretty nifty, ey? But nowadays? It's alright if the crates are in.. let's see, where do crates live? Storagerooms, warehouses, cratefactories..?

I can't honestly say where I saw a wooden crate last time. IKEA? Most definetly not at the busstation, the mall or at work, where most brother- and sistercrates of the gaming universe ends up. And the crate I saw in the real world was either empty or contained a bit more than a giftwrapped Healthpotion +5.

There are tons of more examples that are simply put just the result of bad game- and leveldesign.

Some developers do however manage to break free from the vicious circle of not giving-a-damned-about-logic-and-consistency. Take Halo, which I believe was the first FPS to give up on the idea that the human body could be healed with health packs. A protective shield worked just as well and was more logical too. "Realistic" humans don't heal by picking up an oversized bandageicon even though they are in the mysterious and wonderful future where aliens live and valiant heroes can rise to glory with A/C helmets.

Anyway, what I think I mean to conclude with all my ravings, is that games don't have to be realistic, that's not the point. They have to be logical, or at least logical and consistent with the gameworld. Some games are set in an alternate reality, with a different set of game rules than we're used to, and it's fine. Loco Roco is a wonderful game (I haven't seen any crates yet) but it is not set in a "realistic, human, environment" so their game rules can be different as long as they are... you got it, logical and consistent with their gameworld.

And sure, some "bad solutions" come from a tight schedule, or memory issues, or performance issues and that is understandable. Sometimes it's just a matter of gameplay - it probably wouldn't be fun if the cars in GTA ran on gas, which you had to fill up every now and then (GTA cars all run on nuclear fission by the way) - but if the developers doesn't try and test new ideas, how will games ever evolve?

As always, we gamers (consumers of video games, yum, yum) have to make our voices heard when developers (even those that are out of EAs reach) mess up.

Viva la revolución!

...

Lets wrap up with another MMORPG-question I've yet to find a good answer to:

If

# The question in question. — Guest 2007-01-23 07:02

Seems I reached the text-limit there. :)

The question:

If a quest consists of killing 80 [blue crabs/giant rats/ rabid spiders/whatever], is it more fun than doing a quest of killing one giant [blue crab/giant rat/rabid spider/whatever] that in time and difficulty equals 80 [blue crabs/giant rats/rabid spiders/whatever]?

Or is it just bad gamedesign?

# lol — Guest 2007-01-23 07:45

Tidus: Running out of breath... must. play. BLITZBALL!

# Ultima Online — Guest 2007-01-23 08:02

F*** this S*** Im playing Ultima Online

# Nice article — Guest 2007-01-23 08:09

Honeslty, to your question. I'd go with the killing 80 critters. Since the only way to balance the one would be to give it 80x the hp (as if you increase the damage, it would be effectively force you to fight more than one at a time). Hacking something for 80x as long would be boring, while running a finding them at least breaks the thing up some. Plus, a group of 80 sounds like an infestation that you need to quell, vs one massive one sounds just dumb.

Now for the article, I think that logical loot that can be made into stuff is a lot cooler than bugs dropping plate armor (Champions of Norrath). It also gives you another aspect to try and min/max. The bazaar goods in FFXII is pretty neat, the cubing and runewords of DiabloII was cool too. It made it so you don't just go kill A to get Z. You have to kill A, B and C then take these to the smith so he can make Z.

# fellow QJ writer Gino D. told me... — Guest 2007-01-23 08:11

One time Gino D. and I were drinking (non-alcoholic root-beer of course, because this is a PG-rated blog), that a good RPG has bite-sized quests. He said that it is better to do a few small tasks than one long task that might make your audience lose interest. So killing 2000 crabs is tedious (your audience will hate your game), 40 blue crabs is about right, but one blue crab that takes many minutes to kill might get tedious - especially if the whole game is full of crabs. Your players will get crabby! :)

Of course I disagree with Gino D. But I am a strange fellow. I want an RPG where the people of the village will throw your party in jail if you go into the homes of people and open their cabinets and treasure chests and take their gold and potions. I want an RPG where birds do not drop suits of armor when you kill them. It ruins the suspension of disbelief. Maybe I have just gotten used to playing sci-fi games, but I do believe that I have a point. I am not knocking RPG games - I just think there is room for redesign and I think it will not hurt if designers put in more thought (and come up with creative solutions! that is the challenge that will make creative juices flow!) towards the style, location, and types of boxes, loot, bags, and drops. :)

# Oh jeez. — Guest 2007-01-23 08:14

Anyone who actually took the time to think of this crap REALLY had nothing better or more important to do.

That said, @#$% all the games you guys are mentioning, Phantasy Star Online is still THE best mmo ever. I don`t care what you think.

# I can not believe... — Guest 2007-01-23 08:14

I can not believe that I neglected to mention Monster Hunter. The ideas mentioned in this article would have been conveyed more clearly if I used Monster Hunter as an example.

# Monster Hunter — Guest 2007-01-23 08:21

Yup. and where the hell is M.H. P/F 2 coverage. i demand more teasings. and if capcom doesnt release either p/f2 or Frontier here... idk what im going to do without my monster hunter..... ill freaking translate the freaking iso myself.

# sorry — Guest 2007-01-23 09:25

but i found that article a waste of time....

I'm guessing you are one of the people that would like the Gas Stations in GTA to actually be used to fill up your car? so that ever few miles you'd run out of gas?

These are video games for christ sake! they are supposed to take us away from reality!

go out in the real world and steal ppls liver if it turns you on that much! jesus

# well... — Guest 2007-01-23 10:42

some video games in fact take a step towards realism in order to make you or "the player" feel as if he/she was part of the game. I can agree that some games do need to stay as they are and continue to be made with the same drops that have been in the series since game 1 of that series. If everything was realistic games would be beyond tedious and also more dificult.

For example, you play a rpg and you kill a monster. Now, in real life someone would have to pick over the dead body for hours to get something of use, but in a video game people don't have time to sort through guts,drain blood, remove brains, pump gas, and other things that would take loads of time to do so we get drops with neatly packaged blood, furs,brains, etc.

If you think realism in an rpg is a good idea then imagine this: Taking hours,days, possibly weeks to make a sword with high stats and magical abilities.

# please continue! — Guest 2007-01-23 10:49

Yeah, you don't think too much about realism in an RPG when you're freakin 6. And RPG realism, I personally think, should be in more demand to keep older gamers interested, entertained, and ultimately happy.

Even when RPGs are about fantasy, you know that a boar just shouldn't drop a spear and rats shouldn't be smuggling daggers. Certain item drops should be exclusive to specific monsters, some monsters shouldn't even drop items, making it a monster you'd want to avoid, unless to make up for it, the monster would give up more experience....

Please expand on this article! Make it a petition! Send it to all the big developers - This should be made into a guide for all RPGs. Thank you.

# If you want realism, go play pen & paper... — Guest 2007-01-23 11:22

I think I like to differ PC-RPGS and Pen & Paper, because, PS-RPGs are like books that you read and Pen & Paper is RPG itself for me. Why not playing D&D if you want that, it got everything, depending on which Dungeon MAster you have.

For those who dont know, D&D is not a single genre, you cant say "Oh, it's that Dungeon-crawler thingie"

As I said it depends on the DM who make up the story for the Players.

If the DM is a good story writer or dowsn't like too much fighting and dungeon-crawling, he or she will definitly make a game where you have to go to kings and talk to them about a crisis in the west where a war is being prepared by another fraction or such things that are very complex.

Okay so back to topic:

In such Pen & Paper games, I for example, like to make things realistc by letting the player take the parts of the victim, for example a Bird's meat or an elephant which got ivory, and they sell it on the market OR, to speed up the game, they can take from a victim the parts or the whole victim and I just say how much it will be in GP after selling it and they get it right away...

In my opinion, RPGs will, and I think many do not care about that, never become super-realistic where you can climb every mountain and take every stone or mud from the bottom to use it in every imaginable way.

# Paradox? — WC 2007-01-23 12:25

These aren't paradoxes you idiot. Learn English and come back.

# wow.. — Guest 2007-01-23 12:51

User(Nick).intelect + null

# A joke — andrewr4 2007-01-23 13:25

Robbing hood takes from the rich and gives to...

Monsters. How else does a level 5 spider have that much gold.

# Heed my warning — Guest 2007-01-23 13:33

You know, you could always edit the article and add a new section on what Monster Hunter represents as a loot system.

Then again, you have to notice that the carve system is still quite broken, since some monsters fade away after a few seconds (the "prey" type monsters) and there's still the random chances of getting loot from carves (but there's always the "Mission Completion" loot part, too).

# LOL — Guest 2007-01-23 15:13

Wow, you insulted me with pseudo code. Man, you sure got me!! I mean you totally made me look like a fool!

Get a life kid.

# You both are idiots.... — Guest 2007-01-23 15:56

LordPhrozen: learn to spell. That is not how you write "frozen" or "intellect".

Nick: You laugh at the author, but you "had nothing better or more important to do" than to reply with your unintelligent comment. You act all cool by telling "LordPhrozen" to get a life, yet you play Phantasy Star Online.

# lol — Guest 2007-01-23 16:01

lol, what can i say, i play rpg's but its just one of those things you come to terms with very early and forget about how silly it is. you continue with the game in unrealisticly pretty areas and impossible dungeons fighting alongside humans and not humans and we all consider this just 'part of the game' and once its justified not really thought about again. i hardly think it detracts from a game.

though there are simple things that can be said, you carry viles on yourself to be able to harvest things off corpses like livers and brains, but the loot tables might be able to suggest that items like 'smashed brains' which is unable to be used for whatever quest, or 'tickle of blood' implying that you had already bled it to death during your encounter, with the blood now seeping into the dirt around you instead of being collectable. but im not going to ask for realism, i prefer their efforts go into other areas first

# I do and dont agree. — Guest 2007-01-23 17:18

I know too much realism can make games suck (why would you play games that were no different from real life?)

But I also agree that is you are in a quest to get 8 livers from something, then it would make absolutely no sense for that thing to not have a liver... or the brainless ogres... And people saying your inventory would get too full too fast don't realize that you can choose what you take from your kills. aka only take the worthwhile stuff.

Like someone said with how link in TP carries a giant metal spiked ball, a sword, 2 changes of clothes (including iron boots) and all that extra crap...

well. Showing what all your character has, ON your character (in any game) would be impossible, or would limit you too much in the amount you could hold. But smarter looting systems would in no way hinder gameplay (as long as it was balanced out.)

thats my $0.02

# It's just a game — Guest 2007-01-23 18:35

If you think about it, when you're playing Final Fantasy or whatever, it isn't a real world you're in. It's just a bunch of polygons and pixels and coding. It doesn't matter what something drops because it's not even dropping anything, it's made to look like you got one of an item... and item that doesn't even exist. Sometimes you don't even see the item in RPG's. If you want RPG's to be realistic, then eventually you'd have creators having to make individual potions that look different from one another. Like if you picked up a potion in a city area, it will look dusty, and if you pick it up in a snow area, it would be covered in snow, and different potions you pick up in the show area can be scratched or covered in more snow. In my opinion, that's kinda ridiculous since they all don't exist and it's all just an illusion as you play the game. By the way, I have never heard in my entire life, anyone complain about realism of items/loots in RPG's. How long has this ***** been going on for?

# Lots of hate... sheesh — Guest 2007-01-23 19:04

I found this article amusing. I dont know whats wrong with all these people and their accusations of no life.

I agree with the idea of better logic rather than better realism. Crates in malls makes no sense (unless its a back room) so maybe put the treasure or power up in a grocery bag (for things like healing items) or shopping carts (for bigger things) and monsters should drop things that make sense. Those turtles from FFTA that had swords stuck to their back would obviously be able to give you a nice sword. A giant dragon might give you armor that it ate (maybe anti-fire armor) and zombies might have really low level armor (depending on the area) as well as brains and the other stuff.

Hmm, other than maybe a dark mage or necromancer or something, who would buy a zombie's brain? Why would the item shop owner want a zombie's brain? Maybe some items could only be sold to specific people (you would get more money by selling an old journal of a mage to a scholar than to the local armor shop) or maybe have one person who would buy all your items you are willing to sell but would do so for a bit less, since they have to go sell them to the right shops themselves.

But if we go the route of realism, then zombie brains would be impossible and magic wouldnt even exist, and I dont think I want to play an RPG where magic doesnt exist in some form (like the nanotech from Xenosaga... not really magic, but it works just as well.)

Well those are my thoughts. If you disagree with them then please say so, but do not tell me that I have nothing better to do than read this, because I dont care.

# Just thought of something — Guest 2007-01-23 19:07

Bags of holding for the item problems. Its not impossible if the RPG you are playing has magic, right?

# Don`t forget — Guest 2007-01-23 19:13

^^^^ AND Tales games. Sure, I may play, but I sure as hell don`t think hard over how I found my sword and money from a dead wolf. I just stfu and play it, you know?

# too relaistic! — Guest 2007-01-23 20:40

I've played RPGs since I was 9, and I've never worried WHY the crab gave me 100gil and a sword for kicking it's butt. Infact, some parody RPGs on the internet embrace this stupidity, and use it as a part of their games.

"HeroA: I wonder why the hell that little bunny rabbit had a dagger inside it."

"HeroB: Seriously, if I get another dagger from another bunny rabbit, I'm gonna scream."

Copied (and edited) from... I forget

# realism =/= tedious — Guest 2007-01-23 22:03

Sure, realism can make a game become tedious, but the same thing stands for unrealistic games. All I mean to say is that it all depends on the game developers. It's up to them if they add realism to it and then totally screw the game up. If a game element is poorly implemented, it will always result in a poor game.

The example of a well implemented realistic touch is Monster Hunter (as stated before). Sure, there is still room for improvement, but it is very well done as it is already.

I used to be a big fan of traditional rpg's like Final Fantasy, but ever since I played Monster Hunter Freedom, all the traditional turn-based rpg's just feel boring to me, partly because of the lack of realism. This is the case for even FFXII, where you simply have to press a button in a menu to give out a command (not to mention how lazy you can get with the gambit system).

Monster Hunter is a game where you actually have control over your character and it requires actual skill to fight a monster. I really recommend people to try this game out, it will change your opinion about rpg's for good.

# oblivion — Guest 2007-01-23 22:48

oblivion has really good loot dropping, your average goblin actually drops his equipped weapons on the ground with full ragdoll, and the creatures such as the slaughterfish ocassionally have something stupid like gold but that is still technically realistic the fish could've eaten the coin? unlike games like Dungeon siege where a wolf carries a double bladed staff or a claymore... LOL Still doesnt bother me tho

# Semi off topic but in a similar vein.... — Guest 2007-01-24 03:42

You know what I would really like to see in rpg's or even in other genres? How about if instead of the traditional experience/level up mechanics, you actually improve at a particular skill by doing it.

The more you fight with a sword, the better your sword skills get. Similar weapons (other melee weapons) would gain experience as well, though not as much as the sword, whereas swinging that sword around would do nothing for your aim with a bow.

The only game I know that does this to some extent is GTA: San Andreas. I always liked that it was by running and riding the bike that your stamina improved, it was by shooting a gun that your aim improved, etc.

It could even be taken further by having your hp improve after you've taken enough damage: kind of like it's toughening you up or something.

# ANTI-STEVE — Guest 2007-01-24 04:25

RPGs, like every other game, is made to be fun and challenging, not realistic. Square never thinks "hm... lets make this game as realistic as possible!" when they make a RPG.

If you want realistic, get of your ass into the real world, or playing s.hitty games like the sims.

# Um... — Guest 2007-01-24 19:16

Heaps of RPG's are like this. What have you been playing the past 15 years?

# Oblivion — Guest 2007-01-25 13:36

For example... Oblivion is a really good example of that...

# Thank you for your comment. — Guest 2007-01-27 07:02

I go away for a while and come back to see this comment. I must clarify some things.

A paradox is a statement or proposition that seems self-contradictory or absurd but actually expresses a possible truth. In the case of this article, the term is not used in its strict logical sense. It is used loosely - what some linguistic philosophers and some poststructurali sts call metaphorical language - which is perfectly valid English. But there is even a defense for describing loot drops as logical paradoxes. It seems to be a contradictory statement to say that a wolf (which by nature has a pelt) has no pelt to drop. That a winged bat has no wing to drop. On the other hand, a fish with no hands (and is smaller than a sword) carried a sword and now drops it.

Thank you for your comment. We always take notice when our readers call us idiots. In this case, the venom in your comment made me think that you took offense at my use of the word. I hope my clarification makes things better. :)

And to the other commenters, yes I have no life. Is it not obvious? Hehe.

After all, what do you do when you graduate with a degree in philosophy? What do you do if you\'re a nerd that scored perfectly in the SATs and the AP English exams (back in the days when he was younger and his mind more spry)? In my case, I ended up writing for a living. And because life isn't just about paying the bills, I spend my free time overanalyzing EVERYTHING - even the RPGs I so love. *grins*

# problems with the article (sorry, long post too) — Guest 2007-01-29 18:54

i'd first like to say i agree with the article somewhat. but that isn't of consequence really as i haven't played an rpg that has logical item drop rules. the only thing wrong actually is the use of the word "realism". Links has it spot on saying that the loot drops should be more logical but not necessarily realistic. it's all about immersion people.

sure, a fantasy world might be totaly unrealistic, however, the game designers make the rpgs such that you put yourself in the shoes of the main character or one of the main characters. they make it so that you play the role yourself. of course this isn't what everybody wants to do when the play mmos. however, you know for sure that this is how the designers meant it to be because of the language used by npcs. you don't see npcs doing what other players do and say "u r l33t" or "u suck!" in a medieval fantasy rpg do you? it's all about immersion, and a rabbit dropping a halberd along with a pouch of gold is a distraction from this immersion. given, we are used to this distraction so much because it's how it has always been done. but only people who have played rpgs with item drop rules that are completely consistent with the game world's rules should be able to give proper criticism to the article's idea itself. i have played several rpgs myself and i still wonder about how to justify the kind of loot drops i get.

also one thing i find wrong about the article is the suggestion of adding tracking and avoiding. it is not a bad idea in itself. what's wrong is i don't see how it ties in to the loot problem in the first place. it might be able to allow players to pick their fights more, but i don't see how it helps such that wolves drop wolf pelts instead of bottled potions. the battle finesse and harvesting though might be good ways of implementing proper loot droping. but that's how far i would have gone.

# Titan Quest — Guest 2007-01-31 11:51

Titan Quest did not solve the gold problem, but it did solve the loot problem:

If a monster is not physically carrying on an item on its person, then it simply does not have that item. If you don't see a monster wielding it, then it does not possess it. Ergo, if a monster does have something, then it will drop that item.

Of course, TQ was a hack-and-slash that sent whole nations of monsters at you, but do note that games have already done this.

# Realism — Guest 2007-01-31 16:16

What about there being games where they have monsters with the exact same models but different colors, and somehow they're stronger? Like in the beginning you usually find yourself killing rats or something, but later you might find rats of only different colors with the word "Fierce" in front of their names... aren't they still rats? How about killer ticks... and fleas? I would imagine they would tackle me for 0.001 damage...

# RE: Heed my warning — Guest 2007-02-07 02:50

The article has to be final before it goes out to everyone's RSS readers.

# Store clerks... — Guest 2007-02-07 14:58

The store owners in all of these RPGs will buy the most useless crap all of the time. For example, Lets say you have 99 of the following: rat fur, ogre eyeball, pig intestines, super epic Excalibur, bone chips, blood (from thousands of different animals), and some raged clothes.

Not only do they buy this junk (with the exception of the sword. I will bring that up in my next point) they give you a fairly good amount of money for it. My next point, you could clear your inventory, all your epics, all of your gear, potions, junk, EVERYTHING. And you'll still get all of the gold for the stuff you sold. A time paradox of gold in these merchant's wallets? Doesn't matter if you are a "begging peasant merchant" as long as you buy and sell. you have an infinite stock of cash.

The elder scroll games seem to take these ideas into account. Like merchants only having a certain amount of gold a day. And in other games were merchants will refuse certain goods. Realistic, but also containing the core RPG elements.

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