I don't see how morons...

can just say, "blu ray has more space!" and that is their only base for prediction that and "THE PS3 HAS BLU-RAY"... Not like i really care...500-1000 dollars for a "better" picture... and don't say i'm being negative because i don't have the equipment..i do...two hdtvs that output at 1080p.

...

The images/video stored on the disc have nothing to to with WHERE its stored. Blu-Ray, as a storage medium, is much better than HD-DVD. It's just that the Codecs used on HD-DVD are better (at the moment)

The winner is...

HD-Ray!!!! How come I see Dual Player instead of just HD-DVD or Blu-Ray? I hope its a tied because I don't know why they want to make it together.

-

PS3 FTW!!

i've also..

"The images/video stored on the disc have nothing to to with WHERE its stored. Blu-Ray, as a storage medium, is much better than HD-DVD. It's just that the Codecs used on HD-DVD are better (at the moment)" heard the (at the moment) argument... Did the codec for DVD players and Discs changed over year? If not..what makes you think it'll be different for blu-ray?

br sucks

due to the pitch that the laser sits at with BR data is more prone to corruption and error. although br holds more space hddvd is better designed.

i've also..

"The images/video stored on the disc have nothing to to with WHERE its stored. Blu-Ray, as a storage medium, is much better than HD-DVD. It's just that the Codecs used on HD-DVD are better (at the moment)" heard the (at the moment) argument... Did the codec for DVD players and Discs changed over year? If not..what makes you think it'll be different for blu-ray?

Blu-Ray

Blu-Ray will win. More space, more support, and to top it off... the PS3.

...

How can blu-ray truly be next-gen if it's using current gen sound? Pretty funny since sony people said how can you have a next gen machine without a next gen storage format....good job.

niether will win

un-needed. too expensive. devided formats. and to top it all off... download distrubution.

blue-ray wins

I don't care about next gen format, but I'll buy a ps3 to play games, and if the movies are the same price on dvd and blue-ray I'll buy blue-ray movies dah, so BD wins ( maybe not in PC, but... maybe, because for PC we don't care about the "image", we care about THE SPACE and 25g per layer is.. well... my friends have almost all 40gig HDD so a bdouble layer is already beter then their total memory storage, lol. for myself I have two HDD, one 40g and one 160g so ~50g for a double layer ( basic in ps3 ) is ¼ of my total space, lol. 4 BD for my 2 HDD complete back-up? I'm in! lol

i agree with #10

i agree with #10 in a few years who's going to care about either "format" when you download what you want online. it'll be cheaper and easier for everyone

Blue-Ray

Blu-Ray will lose. Space will never be the deciding factor for a new medium (especially since the trend is moving AWAY from optical storage sollutions). Nor will the fact that the PS3 has it be the deciding factor; early adopters for HD-movie content will want the very best quality for their machine, and the PS3 will be manufactured to save money however it can (by cutting corners in the quality department). Support is not a factor either here; look at the support UMD had when released, and where are they now? Every single format Sony introduced in the last decade or so has FAILED. Why? Because they overcomplicate things. The winning format is always the least complicated one, not the most advanced; MP3-players where around for years, but it was the easy-to-use iPod that won the format war. Same for CDR over MD, VHS over Beta, Memstick over UMD-movie and the list goes on.

Bob's opinion(s)

I dissagree with you about the optical storgage things. When computers are updated, and the BD-ROM Drive or BD-RW, a double dsided one will be able to store more than an average MP3 player. And also, lets face it, when buying a film, you always look at the back to see what extra features it has. Little kids will buy for more features, asking for BR disc's aswell. And how people cant say that the PS3 wont have any impact, is beyond me. I think, that because the PS3 BR player is being offered at such a low price (search for the prices xbox fanboys, PS3 is alot less expensive), it will have a decicind factor. Price will also have an impact, if one is miles cheaper than another one, then the non technical minded people, who think the DVD is still good, will go for the cheaper. Thinking of DVD still, these next gen formats will not catch on for a long time. Normal people are still going to buy DVD's for along time, because there is no need to buy a new player, discs, TV etc. When the DVDis perfect (for some people). Thats what i think, fell free to comment on this Bob

Blu-Ray is the future

There's not much support for HD-DVD. And with the PS3, the industry rather side with Blu-Ray than with HD-DVD because there's no console that supports HD-DVD. Sony knows that the PS3 will be the trojan horse that will put Blu-Ray into millions of home. And the industry knows this too. So why would they risk going with HD-DVD (there's only a few people that will have HD-DVD players) when they can just go with Blu-Ray as millions of people will have a Blu-Ray player as part of the PS3? This is the reason HD-DVD will fail and Blu-Ray will triumph.

Don't listen to others and read my words

First of all, the movie they used at the test is from HD biased Warner Bros. Second, Blu-Ray has all the capabilities as HD, only with with bigger capacity. From what I've read, Blu-Ray has all the capabilities but just not allowed by Sony at the moment or something. But I'm sure it will change once the studios have their own machines. HD-DVD's Dolby Digital + is also supported by Blu-Ray (Both as an option) doesn't this just scream at you about the bias? This doesn't prove either one's superiority over the other format. It just shows how *****ed up Warner Bros is. and Kwyjibo, stop ranting. CD and DVD was developed also by Sony. CDR never competed with MD. MD was very popular in Japan (Just like the iPod is right now). Beta is still being used by the TV stations because of its high quality, and that's AROUND the globe. Your perspective isn't worth a damn... Oh, by the way, MPEG2 takes up larger storage but has less loss rate than VC1 or something... VC1 was around 5% worse, and in HD, I guess it might be huge. I read it somewhere but I couldn't find it anymore. That's why they're trying to use MPEG2 and fully use up its advantage, which is storage capacity. Either way, even if BR fails, the games will still have BR storages, so it's a Win Win situation for the gamers.

heh

As much as I would want HD DVD to be the format of choice, Blu Ray has better studio support. Which in the long run should give it the edge. In my opinion however, Blu Ray sucks big time as I am exposed to the POS on a daily basis. I do part time work at a local best buy as there computer repair specialist. It is indeed very slow when it comes to loading & launching a movie. The picture quality is not all that surperb, especially when compared to a movie playing in 720p. The Best Buy display model that we have has known issues of chopping up once in awhile in a movie. So far, the movies we've played in it are Triple X, Hitch, The Fifth Element & Underworld Evolution. The picture quality is "OK" at the most, but nothing worth dropping $1000+ on a player for. Only a handful of players have sold from our present location. Toshibias HD-DVD player flew off the shelf the first day we got it. Even though from my knowledge, we only had a stock of 200. We also have no stock of HD-DVD movies since they sold very quickly as well :). Still awaiting a restock. Don't know how its fairing anywhere else, but Blu Ray is doing real bad in NYC.

Well...

I think it's too early. And by that, I mean there aren't enough incentives to the unknowledgeable consumer. In video storage media, the VHS was introduced in 1976, and it remained the US standard until 1996, when DVD was introduced. The largest benefits are obvious, with better picture quality, menus, larger storage, and the physical benefit of size; DVDs "stack" and require less space to physically store. Needless to say, people were willing to drop VHS in favor of the virtually superior DVDs. However, neither Blu-Ray nor HD-DVD boast as big a leap as was from VHS to DVD. Apart from that, the benefits aren't as obvious either. Uninformed consumers don't want to hear technical drivel from a BestBuy employee about "the newest media disc" because they don't care. What they DO care about is if they can view their movie with pleasure. People buy the new Video iPod, yet its video size is terrible. Now, don't get me wrong, iPod video won't replace DVDs, but I exemplify this to express a point: People are interested in gimmicks because they suprise us the most. Nobody would have suspected that an iPod would display video, and yet now it does, and people want it. Neither Blu-Ray nor HD-DVD have enough benefits over the current DVD that make themselves obviously better than DVD. Sure video is crisper, and sure they have more size. But are such features APPARENT to consumers? And if they are, is it worth the PRICE? But who knows. If Sony has bought out enough companies to persuade them into revolutionizing the market into Blu-Ray-only movie releases, then the consumer might have no other choice but to switch. However, I doubt it, because that means buying out A LOT of companies, and that requires A LOT of money, even for Sony. And let's not forget, Betamax was Sony's combatant to VHS, and VHS ultimately won in the end.

Sry

Or maybe society in this day and age has become so technically savvy that even slight innovations of existing technology sell well. Maybe the technically savvy "niche" market has grown enough that their purchases may allow even small-time innovations to become "mainstream". Who knows.

@Kura

CD where developed by a consortium of Sony and Philips, not just Sony. DVD's main developer was Toshiba, not Sony. You, in all your infinite wisdom are mixing up Betamax (Sony's failed format) and BetaCam (still the main standard for broadcast, with later iterations called Beta SP, DigiBeta and Beta SX), BetaCam was developed from BetaMax, but has no consumer application whatsoever. So they are two completely uncomparable standards from a consumer point of view. Support for one format or the other can change overnight if one format turns out to be more interesting for a particular studio. Sony had plenty of support for their BetaMax on release, and how many moviestudios have continued that support? I am NOT ranting, just giving my opinion. Deal with that. My perspective is worth as much as yours (maybe even more since you seem misinformed on several key issues).

hmmm

people can argue all day and night about which one is better or not. Lets face it, these are relatively new formats, there not going to be perfect straight away, plus there not just competing against each other, there competing against DVd, which in my opinion will still be the main disc format for many many years. The only key difference between hd-dvd and blu-ray is that Blu-ray is in PS3. People ignore that if you want, but its a big difference. There'll be at least 2million people come november with blu-ray in there homes. I will be one of them, and ill be buying one or two movies to see what all the fuss is about. Nobody can argue that the BD format will be in greater use come later this year, simply because theres more blu-ray players around than HD-DVD. Anyway, DVD wont be replaced by either, the format is far too big at the moment to be replaced

this isnt true...

currently blu ray discs are only 25 gigs(single layer) 50gigs dual layer blu rays havent came out yet while hd dvds are in both 15gigssingle layer and 30gigsdual layer depending which movie.

That's why

Thats why Microsoft decided to take the HD-DVD, cause it will win the fight and Sony, with his blue-ray, will loose it !! :) (And Sony already did lose that kind of fight in the past)

I blow your bubble

"Thats why Microsoft decided to take the HD-DVD" you failed to mention: "AS AN ADDON" M$ is not fully supporting it, hence why the kiddybox1.5 has still DVD and also thats why never ever a kiddybox game comes in HD-DVD. Capiche?

» I blow your bubble

Hmm, nop ! Not at all ! ;) So, i don't "Capiche" ! ;) Kiddybox 1.5 don't need more than a DVD to play Kiddybox 1.5 games and will be able to play the same games Dumpstation 3 has, but maybe with 2 disc instead of one (This will happen with BIG BIG GAMES by the way) And you failed to say that Sony will lose ! :P Capiche ! :)

The point should not be...

when Sony implements better codecs, Blu-Ray will win. The point should be why hasn't Sony, the studios, etc. implemented better audio/video codecs from the get go. If the success of this format is so important to Sony, they should not leave anything to chance. And actually, I am less apt to blame the studios, as every HD-DVD release thus far has been using the VC-1 codec and every Blu-Ray has been using MPEG-2. Why would the studios choose to use codecs that are of lesser quality for their showcase of the latest and greatest technology. Every review I have read up to now has given HD-DVD the edge, especially on the HD forums whose members are alot of those early adopters that Sony needs for initial success. Sony and/or the Blu-Ray consortium members who make decisions about which codecs to use need to get their s**t together and fast.

Samsung BD-P1000 IS NOT A REFERENCE PLAYER!

All reviews using this player is INVALID. The player has an error in the firmware that softens the image. The same Blu-ray movies will look much better in PS3. Don't forget that. Here is my source: "Reports indicate that playback of BD titles in a modified player (with the noise reduction turned off) looked much closer to the master video tape and far better than an unmodified player, such as those currently available on the market." http://cdrinfo.com/Sections/News/Details.aspx?NewsId=17578

:$

nocomment

HD

HD DVD plays all your old DVD's and is cheaper. nuff said

:$ oops....pressed enter as a typo

Kwyjibo, if you knew about Betamax and BetaCam that much, why were you mentioning MD! as a sad former MD lover, that set me off! However, more research leads me to believe that you are right in your rebuttal. Sony DITCHED its and philips' version of DVD for Toshiba's Sony also developed the CD in CONSORTIUM with philips' but I thought you meant that every format that sony backs is doomed. Otherwise, I wouldn't have said such enraging things:P

to vecha

They have options to choose different codecs. Blu-Ray can also choose to use VC1 which Microsoft has developed. But you know Sony's stubborn so they'll keep with MPEG2

blue-ray wins

you know, we alreadyhave to slip the movie from the features, do you really think that, for the printers, 2 dvds are cheaper then one BD? no, to make, a BD is almost the same price, and personally I'd like if x-men 3 movie could also have a demo of the game on the disc, as well as the full-screen AND wide screen. Also, the disc could contain ALL the languages and subtitles, not only english and french in canada ( and sometimes only english ) but french-english-japanese-chinese-spanish-german etc etc, so they could print the same BD for everybody with only ONE change, the basic setting... or it's in the BD-player? anyway, with also features like the deleted scenes and commentary from the producer and a LOT of trailers and other stuff, you know what I'm talking about! this would help a LOT!! also, the ps3 is going to sell it to all ps3 buyers so...

For now HD-DVD is the winner

Studios don't put their power into BD-R until PS3 launch. Userbase is too small to spend money on all the fancy stuff. SONY is using MPEG2 codec for now - which is an inferior codec, but it should change soon. Blu-ray KILLS HD-DVD, it's bitrate is twice as high, allowing for much higher sound and picture quality, we just have to wait for companies to start using it (and that will be when PS3 launches).

Why Fullscreen

#32: Why would any studio waste their time in putting a fullscreen version of a film on a HD-DVD or BlueRay disk when HD Format specifies 16x9 Widescreen. I'm hoping HD-DVD or Blueray will be the end of Fullscreen.

PS3ray

Blu-ray will give more space for gaming, thats all I care about, I won't be watch to many blu-ray movies for a while anyways. Until my video rental place starts carrying them, and they are new released movies that I don't already own on dvd or already have seen, then I'll buy blu-ray movies, I don't however know why 360 gamers would by a HD dvd drive when it only plays movies. If thats all you can do, and playing games is the why you spent 400 on it in the first place. Its better to buy a PS3 and not only get Bluray movies but games also. 3 yrs from now when we get to see some better games for all platforms, I think disc space will be a huge part in what devs do making games. Cost and time will go down for making the games, and I think ms is going to have to make a major change in plans to get multiplatforming games to not only look but have the same content as the PS3 games. Doesn't bluray have like 90% of hollywood studios behind it. That should make fighting a war much easier.

#34

dude, my hdtv is not wide screen, its fullscreen, and there are many tvs like that

@Shane

HDTV specification requires Widescreen. If your TV is not widescreen, it does NOT comply to the HDTV standard. It may be a highres TV (think PC monitor), but it is definately not complying with HDTV. @32 If you were an early adopter of DVD, you would know that early DVDs contained almost all conceivable languages and subtitles (at least for all major markets), and space was never a constraint. An average movie takes about 5gb of date, every 5.1 audiotrack about 250mb and every Subtitle track about 10-20mb. The problem isn't space, the problem is that every country has their own distributer (something the EU is not trying to end) wanting their piece of the pie, so they only release local version with 2 tracks (usually the original track + local language). And since pretty much every extra comes on a seperate disk anyway now, there is no real need to fit everything on the same disk. Oh and the difference in manufacturing costs of BD vs HD-DVD is HUGE. You yould almost manufacture the entire James Bond Collection in HD-DVD for the price of a single film in BD (at least for now), because HD-DVD doesn't require a change in production process (and a DVD print is a matter of cents...). Only after all Manufacturing facilities have changed to BD, and paid for their investments through sales (something that will take YEARS) will BD be able to compete with HDDVD in terms of production cost.

Typo

That should be :(something the EU is NOW trying to end), obviously...

question?

doesn't the bluray have the vc-1 codec too?? why the hd-dvd has better quality if they both have the same codec??

to # 15

Can you told me one propietary media storage from sony that wins any media format? Let's see: Beta.. loss to VHS. Mini discs... Down the drain they go. UMD's... A total failure. What made you think a propietary format like the Blue Ray is going to win this time? Because is in the PS3? No way! It will take more than that to make people move from a secure and cheap format like DVD, to and uncertain one like is Blue ray.

blu ray wins

hd dvd to me seams a large step back

?

who cares?

Blu-Ray doesnt dictate what compression to use.

Movies studios have gone with MPEG2 because that's what they have been using for their DVDs. They are not mandated to use it. Stop spreading the ignorance.

....

It looks like a zip disk with a cd inside.

I am going to start calling myself FUD Destroyer- here are more things clarified for you folks

"CD where developed by a consortium of Sony and Philips, not just Sony. " Oh yeah funny you should say that, the BD consortium has over 170 members. Its Board of Directors consists of representatives from Apple Computer Corp.; Dell, Inc.; Hewlett Packard Company; Hitachi, Ltd.; LG Electronics Inc.; Mitsubishi Electric Corporation; Panasonic (Matsu*****a Electric); Pioneer Corporation; Royal Philips Electronics; Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd.; Sharp Corporation; Sony Corporation; TDK Corporation; Thomson; Blu-ray is not only Sony as ignorant posters would have you believe. "HD DVD plays all your old DVD's and is cheaper. nuff said" Blu-Ray also plays your DVDs. The PS3 makes HDDVD look more expensive actually. The movies are priced about the same. "SONY is using MPEG2 codec for now - which is an inferior codec, but it should change soon." It's not inferior. It's actually superior since there is much less compression. The codec used is based on the studios not on Sony. The BD player used to compare the formats it's flawed. Just about every article on that player has mentioned that there is a hack to get the player to output correctly. But who cares by early next year there will be about 20 different BD players from multiple companies and Toshiba will be left out on the cold since they are the only ones producing HDDVD players. " Oh and the difference in manufacturing costs of BD vs HD-DVD is HUGE." It is not HUGE. It is more however since BD yields are low. This of course changes drastically with time and the manufacturing cost for both should be about the same as DVDs in the future. "Can you told me one proprietary media storage from Sony that wins any media format?Let's see: Beta.. loss to VHS. Mini discs... Down the drain they go. UMD's... A total failure" Most of the formats you mention had no competition. Mini Disc had no direct competitor. They were actually fantastic. Problem was that MP3s came along and revolutionized the way we get get our music and there was no longer a need for MiniDiscs. UMDs are not competing with anything. It's a nice little bonus that studios release movies on them. That's it. Their main purpose is to hold games, not play movies and in that front UMDs are a success. Would you call Nintendo's formats unsuccessful? They didn't see a single movie come out for them.

BD

Someone mentioned that UMD lost against memsticks. Um... you *do* know who's responsible for Memory Stick, do you??? SONY!!!! And well, lately it seems that the Memory Sticks are doubling up capacity while also getting cheaper every day. So it's crushing the "Mass Storage Device" market with CF, SD, and some other small device storage media out there, while even 1 or 2 years ago the format was one of the least used. What changed the demand??? The PSP. So yes, hell YES the PS3 will be the deciding factor for BluRay's success. Every future PS3 owner will be a potential BD consumer.

One will Win

To the #10.. one will win did you believe that DVD was the format of the future. Yes one will win and egard less of being better. The Winner will be based on money. Whether better support or better marketting or better sponsering ... one will win. HD content is the future. Not needed .. ha sad to hear have you even owned a tv of more than 50 inches and watched in HD games or Content over digital SAT. then you are truly behind if you think it's not needed.

To #45

---"It's not inferior. It's actually superior since there is much less compression." The 'measure' of these compressor/decompressors (codecs) is the decompressed quality they offer for a given level of compression and hence for a given file size. At any given file size, VC-1 offers superior quality to MPEG2. If those same Blu-ray movies were using VC-1 instead of MPEG2, the quality would be superior (just like the HD-DVD movies). Therefore VC-1 is a superior codec to MPEG2. Regarding the reasons why Blu-ray movies are MPEG2 right now, the following seems to expalin why - http://www.hdbeat.com/2006/06/23/blu-ray-mpeg-4-bd-j-tools-on-the-way-from-matsu*****a-panasonic/

I dont't buy it.

So the movie studios, even the ones that support both formats decide that MPEG2 is good for Blu-Ray, but VC-1 is good for HD-DVD. And they also decided to not include Dolby Digital + with Blu-Ray, but to include it with HD-DVD. So the movie studios believe it is good policy to put out a product that is noticeably inferior in both audio and video quality on Blu-ray to what is being put out on HD-DVD. If this is the case, why are the movie studios trying to sabotage Blu-Ray?!?

It's about the authoring tools

49 Read comment 48's URL link for a better explanation. Rumor has it that currently the only authoring tools for Blu-Ray support MPEG2. "At any given file size, VC-1 offers superior quality to MPEG2. If those same Blu-ray movies were using VC-1 instead of MPEG2, the quality would be superior (just like the HD-DVD movies)." This is simply not true. You are talking about comparisons made on a faulty BD player. Sony actually claims that their high-bit rate MPEG-2 encoding produces more artifact-free video than VC1. And on a scientific test done in Japan, MPEG2 was ruled superior. Of course you can't take this as truth since MS releases similar statements about VC1 but please don't go around spreading incorrect information like VC1 offers superior quality because it's not true.

by the way smokeelaa, the audio was said to be better on the BD player

Here is a quote from one reviewer: "Blu-Ray is using uncompressed PCM 5.1 audio. The sound is again, remarkably better through the analog outputs. Unlike HD-DVD and the Toshiba, the uncompressed PCM soundtracks have all been consistently of high quality and “House of Flying Daggers” is one of the finest soundtracks I’ve ever heard. Where the Toshiba and HD-DVD gets the visual nod, so far Samsung and Blu-Ray get the aural nod."

U keep saying the ps3 will help.

well the hd-dvd add on for 360 will be around 100$ + the normal 360 for 300$ is $400. While the cheaper version of the ps3 for $500 is allready100$ more expensive. There proved you wrong, and also one more this the 500$ and 600$ price tag on the ps3 is the price son is selling the ps3 to retailers, so in the end retailers can jack up the prices as high as they feel. You can already see the few sites that have ps3s up with price tags for pre-order have them around 1000$

Winner: Tie

To tell you what I personally think, I think Its going to be a tie. Some Companies are going to sign the only 1 FORMATT, making the consumer buy both players in order to watch the movie they want. If you want to watch 'Saw 2', than you are forced to buy Bluray if you have an HD-DVD player. If you want to watch 'Serenity', then you are forced to buy HD-DVD, if you have a Bluray player. If thats not the case, than HD-DVD will win... because of one reason.. that reason is "PRICE"!!! People dont care about quality, people care about saving money, when you see a sill movie player for 1000 bucks and 500 bucks... which are they going to buy... 500.. which is HD-DVD!

Hybrid

I suspect that there will eventually be a drive that simply plays both formats. I have a rediculuously high quality Sony Receiver from the early 90's. The thing still purrrs beautifully. I love Sony and my PSP's although since GT4 and the logitech wheel I haven't really played my PS2. I hope Blue Ray wins the war. I picture GT5, and a new Logitech Wheel mail in rebate where the proof of purchase from both yeilds a 1080p blue ray disc on the making of GT5. Either way, the point has been made before. If you don't have the rediculously expensive TV, just stick with DVD for now like most of the world and wait to see what happens. PS3 can only help the Blu Ray format, so I believe that blue ray has the edge.

..Just read

Who gives a ***** PS3 plays Blue Ray and HD-DVD so either way sony is made X-BOX 360 on the other hand had a chance for failure ....any way XBOX 360 dont even have a player biult in for the crappy format they chose YTF would u back them their not even in the market

@53

why not buy a PS3 for 500$? or was thare a joke i missed?

People!!! my GOD!

nocomment

sry

Sry. Enter instead of tab. Anyhow.... You guys keep talking about the specs like they're the only factor to which media will "win". Reality just in, guys: People operate on a WORLD level. There are more factors to success in the technology industry than just "specs". It's also about marketing. About media expansion. About presentation. Needless to say, there's more than just "specs".

#50

"This is simply not true. You are talking about comparisons made on a faulty BD player. Sony actually claims that their high-bit rate MPEG-2 encoding produces more artifact-free video than VC1." It is true, and what you say effectively confirms it. From my understanding, VC-1 is capable of achieving the same quality as MPEG-2 but with a lower bitrate because of improve compression techiques (about 2 or 3 times less bitrate). Therefore with a 25GB MPEG-2 movie for example, you could replicate that quality with a 12-13GB VC-1 movie. That means for the same file size, VC-1 offers about twice the quality of MPEG-2. Hence for the same quality, you need about twice the space for MPEG-2, and this is what Sony are counting on with Blu-ray. That is, fitting movies onto larger Blu-ray discs in future (50GB+) compared to HD-DVD. However, by time Sony are ready add an extra layer onto Blu-ray to achieve 50GB, HD-DVD will be likely achieve an extra layer to achieve 45GB. So this situation is likely to exists until either a) Blu-ray discs pull way ahead of HD-DVD for capacity or b) Sony autoring tools include VC-1 support, offering studios the choice to use VC-1 for Blu-ray movies. I think it's quite obvious why Sony are reluctant to use Microsoft's VC-1 codec. ;) So going back to the players, sure the Samsung Blu-ray drive may have some faults, and this could effect the overall quality, but it doesn't explain away the issues of banding and artifacts seen in the Blu-ray movies, which are the result of the MPEG-2 encoding, not a faluty player! I believe when other Blu-ray players are available for test, the issues regarding artifacts and banding will be the same. We'll see.