I really don't care what they're next announcement is...judging from their interview after E3 and how it's all about money...this surprise is probably just another jerk to the stiffy they gave micro$oft.

On The FFXIII Issue It's All GOOD Bigger Fanbase For The Game Not FOR A SYSTEM (I OWN ALL 3 SYSTEMS And Both Portables SO U CANT CALL ME A FANBOY OVER A SYSTEM)



On The FFVII Issue I Think It May Be The Game That Takes Place After Dirge.



"""""""SPOILER"""""""""SPOILER"""""""""SPOILER""""""""""" Does Anyone Remember Genesis Being Revived Magically At The End Caring Whats His Name In The End? It's Kinda Like He's The Main Bad Guy Thats Working Behind The Scene Like Wesker In Resident Evil. Who Knows What Does Everyone Think???





It May Also Be The Remake That Everyone Desires So Badly But I Really Dont Think So Since Most Of The Main Staff Are Still Held Up with Other Projects Like FFXIII And Versus.

just maybe it could be an anouncment of the ffvII remake.

hopefully it wont be "it brings me great pleasure today,to anounce that we at square-enix have decided to remake ff7 on the ps3....... oh and on the 360 as well,sry but its our tradition to f**k sony in the azz while sucking m$ 8IID"



IMO i have appsolutley no idea wut they will anounce,but after that backstabbing bull they pulled at the m$ e3 concert,i refuse to get hyped over anything sqeenix has to do with anymore.



i accually want it to be KINGDOM HEARTS EXCLUSIVELY TO THE PS3 :)

should read... "no wonder the general media looks down on gamers so much".



Which is true.



But seriously, what's your problem Apeaggedon? It's not as if they've cancelled the PS3 version! You act as if Sqaure Enix owes you something. :) They have to make money, like everyone else, so a 360 version makes perfect sense.

OMG maybe its a brand new game that isnt Final Fantasy 29 or Kingdom Hearts 9. Seriously Though their are way too many remakes and not enough new games coming out. Maybe SE big news is that their porting FF7 to the psp or ds or releasing it with the other final fantasy games.

They said they're releasing it for 360 and PS3? So what the he11 is the problem? On more systems so more people can play it. Why be upset cause the jerk down the road can play it on his system but you want him to have to buy the system you own for him to play it. Really do some people think before they write?



Just be happy their actually thinking of releasing it and not canceling it.



Just remember Final Fantasy started at 1 not 7, there are more FF games on Nintendo then any other system and there are other games in this world beside FF.

couldn't agree more



it was never about tradition, the only reason sony has had a lock on FF titles since 7 is it's large market and capable hardware.



they aren't the only big system in town anymore...

It still takes longer to port a game than localize it. They havent even started the Xbox version yet. There are many hurdles they have yet to encounter and storage and compression issues to deal with. Localization is only a matter of translation, but now it's a matter of so much more than that. And when I say delay a year or more, I mean beyond the 6 month localization period I was already anticipating before the announcement of the 360 version.

Knowing MS they might make a PC port a year after the launch which will be awsome if they do

Oh you mean like how the Franchise was throughly engrained into Nintendo. Hmm I guess you forgot their were other FF games before FF7 and pretty much all of them were for nintendo. Hell they made Super Mario RPG which was one of the best RPG's I have ever played. Also you notice how SE was with both companies when they were the most popular systems out there and notice how they finally decide to release a FF game for Microsoft when they have a bigger base than Sony.

I wouldn't bother getting too distraught over this I feel bad you bought a PS3 just for this game but I guess this is what happens when you make a expensive console and have to rely on a handful of exclusives to sell your system *cough* halo*cough* , and hey there is always FF14 to look forward to it might be a PS3 Exclusive.

Having said the above, I also want to add that Sony are a little arrogant if they think Devs will not jump ship because they are Sony.



People will be people, and Devs - who, after all people - will wag their tails if MS waves a bag of money (case in point, Rockstar and Bethesda with their DLC, and SE with their multiplat-decison while keeping some games exclusive for the 360).



So, instead of grumbling and muttering and saying "Oh well", Sony should jump on the bandwagon and join this bribe-fest :), if that's the only way they can keep up.

even if SE make a lot of "exclusives" for xbox, Sony is still gonna make money. why?? coz Sony owns SE by 9.5%



http://www.square-enix.com/jp/ir/e/stock/stockholder/

Thinker.

Every First Letter Caps ............. Better Yet Why?

they probably had something legal tied to the japanese release which they are not gonna say out loud. M$ would give anything to let them have a bigger bite on the Japanese market share.

I doubt it because it seems they only do that to their exclusive games to screw over pc gamers but Call of Duty was cross platform (except the wii) and it was released on time. Hopefully it will all come out on time.

You should all remember that Sony has some pretty big ties with Disney, and since KH is a Disney based game, you can count on it not coming to anything M$

only reason I bought a damn ps3 was for ff Xlll

owell I works well as a bluray player

the anouncement was that $E was just fI_Ick!ng around with M$ and said "psych,we were just kidding.. its coming to ps3 exclusively,we just wanted to fu** with you guys" lol that would be AWSOME.

its the only way to redeem themselves for now...



(dreams)-it would be awsome if they had a launch event ver here at the playstation store were i live and no one showed up.. dude just sittin there with a pen for autograph's and then all of a sudden,ALLL the loyal ff ps3 fans come marching towrds the store with rockets,grenade s,fully auto's,dynamite,and claymores and the midget kamakaze's and blow that mutha fu*k3r to smithereens.



haha woohoo!

for those complaining about holding back shipment due to release on 360. GTA4 was delayed entirely due to being released on ps3. cry cry cry, thats all this site ever produces, one excuse and one gripe after another

Damn, you really live up to that name thinker...



i never really thought about it that way. I'm well aware of the BS that microsoft pulls off with its windows and stuff (i've been a religious Linux user for about half a year now, want something done right you gotta do it yourself), but i didn't have the foresight to compare their business ethics to the console war. Hopefully this is a perpetual tug of war, it's the only way we'll ever get decent service and products. I guess i never really looked at it from a business point of view, maybe because i always viewed consoles as toys (what appeals to little kids is quantity not quality). And being that home entertainment is a multibillion dollar a year industry, i see how it's the time for major competition to be had.



thanks from a fellow thinker

maybe not.



Money Talks but not everyone listens, they may hear but don't listen... if you know what I mean.



see EA vs Take2, MS bid for Yahoo....



off topic I thinks its hilarious that every Sony VAIO PC sold has some flavor of Windows installed on it.



what does that have anything to do with anything?



probably nothing.



Maybe everything....

Final Fantasy VII and Final Fantasy VIII were not Playstation exclusive, both also played on the computer. That means that Square-Enix needed to to deal with Microsoft to get their code base to be able to install on their operating system. Even though microsoft didn't have a console out, they still had both seven and eight. Eleven came for Microsoft Windows before it came to PS3. Only nine, ten , and twelve we're sony exclusive. This means that anyone stating that that Square-Enix is backstabbing Sony for 'also' (not only) going to the Xbox360, they never were exclusive.

This as well does not make them anymore more money grubbing than any other company, Square-enix may have even had to put it on the Xbox360 to pay off covering costs, games today take alot more money to make today, but yet the three big companies still have the lock of a $59.99 price for a game, and with all the man power that has to be put into games these days, to stay exclusive to any system as of right now would be a very poor choice.

I myself am a PS3 fanboy, I own a PS3 80GB and bought it as soon as I had the money. I have my own problems with the way microsoft does run things with their consoles, such as quickly abandoning a console. But to actually be angry that another console is getting the same game title as the system your more fond of is just sheer childish. That's just you saying, "O now that you have the game also my copy doesn't look as good anymore".

there isnt many xbox 360 sold in japan so its easier to no make it for 360 there than to make it for 360 then translate it to english and sell it here where the console gap isnt as much

It is a big deal, because unlike the others, sony owns stock in SE. They own nearly 10% which may not seem like a lot, but it's a lot more than microsoft or nintendo own. So yeah, SE should be more loyal to Sony

I have all three systems as well. My problem is, like most, that I bought a PS3 recently for exclusive titles, mainly Final Fantasy. Obviously going multiplatform is the way to go if you want to make money but companies should be honest from the start. Now I pretty much threw away all that money for a game that I could have had on my 360. SE I used to love you, now I hope you rot in hell.

I ant no fan boy. I Just love all consoles

In the rare event that Metal Gear Solid 4 had been in fact possible on the 360, do you think Konami would piggyback on Microsoft just as SquareEnix has done?



I want to see someone honestly answer this question with facts to back their claim.



The way I see it, any game developer would hop at the chance of being viewed from both sides of the fence given the right brushing.

You said "I think, G4J, you are being unreasonably supportive of all things MS."



As I think you're being unreasonably anti-MS and pro-Sony here. See, I can play the same game too. :)



"I think it is only fair, at least in this, that you call a spade a spade and accept that SE could have pushed out the PS3 version out the door, if it was going to be finished earlier than the 360 version."



And I think it's only fair you look at the release dates of previous FF games before jumping to conclusions.



"Porting doesn't take place in a jiffy, or with a snap of the fingers as you seem to imply."



I'm fully aware that porting isn't an instant process, but developement is actually on PCs first, then ported to the PS3, and then ported to the 360.



This is made easier because the game runs on a multi-platform engine, called Crystal Tools (previously known as the White Engine).



The link will not work if I print it here, but this is from Gamespot on Febuary 23rd (look it up in Google);



GDC '08: Final Fantasy XIII powered by Crystal Tools:



Quote: "While Final Fantasy XIII is a PlayStation 3 exclusive, Murata said Crystal Tools has no such affiliation, and is already compatible with the PC and Xbox 360 also".



So, do I really need to spell out the significance of having the SAME game engine running on both the PS3 the 360 already? ;)



The game engine is running on PC and both consoles (PS3 and 360), and therefore porting from PC to PS3 is no more difficult than from PC to 360.



So Keith, although technically they haven't started the 360 version of FFXIII yet, in practice they have started it, because the game engine is up and running on the console. So it's not as if they're starting from scratch, a vast amount of the worked needed to port the game to the 360 has ALREADY BEEN DONE.



Now if FFXIII was developed exclusively on the PS3 hardware and then the game engine and content had to be re-programmed and ported to the 360, THEN I could accept the delay argument, but I'm sure you can see now that porting to the 360 will be no more difficult than say porting an Unreal Engine 3 based game from one console (or PC) to another console.



Hence to repeat the point I made before "I doubt the 360 will add much (if anything) to delay the game further in the US and Europe. Certainly not a year, 6 months at the most given the previous FF games."

Excellent post!





Very refreshing to see on QJ :)

Hi G4J,



Long time since we exchanged words :). Nice to see you respond. I was beginning to think you had moved on to another thread.



Anyway, whether you want to accuse me of being a hypocrite or not - that is your prerogative. For myself, I know that my conscience is clear. I am fairly open about things. Yes, I have made no secret of the fact that I own all three consoles and that I still prefer the PS3, and I believe my reasons, although subjective, are well-founded.



Anyway, since you've accused me, let me tell you that in the past I've criticised not only 360 fanboys, but also PS3 fanboys. Take Stealth, for example. I don't remember the exact thread, but if you search, you will find instances where I have criticised PS3 fanboys. You, on the other hand, I have seen online several times, but NEVER have I seen you criticise a 360 fanboy. Maybe you did and maybe I missed those posts, but I have yet to see you be impartial.



As for FFXIII, nice job of putting a spin on my words "bribing and strong-arming" so as to make me appear in a negative light. I never said they used BOTH for THIS particular game. NO I DO NOT THINK MS STRONG-ARMED SQUARE-ENIX INTO GOING MULTI-PLAT FOR THIS GAME (and that is because they DO NOT HAVE THE LEVERAGE TO, not because of any ethical conundrums), and yes, I DO THINK they bribed SE for the following two reasons:

1) To get FFXIII on their console

2) PS3 version was obviously going to be finished earlier. In order to ensure that the PS3 version did not come out earlier



I'm not an industry insider and can't provide the necessary proof. However, what I'm basing my argument on is 1) Microsoft's PROVEN TRACK RECORD of using these business practices, and 2) common sense. Sure, you can convince yourself that MS didn't offer a single cent to get this game, and that in itself would prove, at least to me, where your bias lies.



"That said, if a company has to do whatever it takes to offer more and better games for me as a gamer, then I'm all for it."

-> And that's where you are being blind. We have clear evidence (out there on Wikipedia, Answers, News channels, wherever you care to look) that whenever Microsoft manages to establish itself as a monopoly in ANYTHING, it is the Consumer who suffers. If you don't believe that, then you have been living in Planet Fantasia, my friend.

What I'm saying is, if MS continues with these UNDER-HANDED tactics, their history has shown that they WILL SUCCEED in establishing themselves as a monopoly in the hardcore gamer market (which, as you probably know, is a multi-billion dollar industry, and is NOT about toys or just games), and if and when that happens, you can kiss "better games" and "good hardware" goodbye. If you think that's not true, then you ARE a MS fanboy, and I stand by that statement.



You can accuse me of whatever the hell you want, but my conscience is clear whenever I post something. The way you evaded and dodged my question "or is this contribution of yours PS3-exclusive?" makes me think I can't say the same about you.



Regards,

MTK

Also,



This is something I have seen you ALWAYS do. whenever I accuse you of being a fanboy, instead of providing an appropriate response, you side-step that question and ALWAYS accuse me of being a fanboy/hypocrite myself, and as proof of your statement, you offer my accusation. I find that to be really cheap.



Sorry for taking the gloves off, but this is something I've ALWAYS seen you do whenever I point out you are doing something fanboyish.



For my part, since you accused me of being a hypocrite (and, by implication, a fanboy) WHERE in my post did I indicate that FFXIII coming to the 360 is BAD for gamers? Point out the line, and I'll gladly accept you are right. I have this history on QJ. If I'm wrong, I HAVE accepted it. The same can't be said of you. Maybe you think you are ALWAYS right, but try to look through others' eyes as well.



All I said was, game coming to 360 - good, the means employed for bringing this and other games to the 360 - bad in the LONG RUN.



How does that make me a fanboy? I used to look at your posts with a certain respect, but I'm afraid, by your evasion and accusation, you lost that.



Sorry for the strong words. Just angry at bringing up a post relating to business practices and being accused of being a fanboy.

Though Bioshock is obviously a great game. Final Fantasy is a titan of a series in the video game industry. They used Final Fantasy to advertise Coca Cola in Japan. So though the loss of Bioshock as an exclusive may be unfortunate to some people. The loss of a game/series as monumental as Final Fantasy is a huge blow.

...you ARE as much a PS3/Sony fanboy as I am a MS/360 fanboy.



And I have criticised 360 fanboys, just because YOU haven't seen it doesn't mean I haven't done so. Likewise, I haven't seen you criticise PS3 fanboys, but that doesn't mean you haven't added a token criticism against a PS3 fanboy every now and again. ;)



As you say, you have no proof to your arguments, hence that says it all really. Your arguments are baseless, and therefore it seems foolish to go overboard over speculation, and especially to your claim that MS could result in a future without better games and better hardware.



That's the same BS argument Nintendo fanboys used to use against Sony regarding the Playstation, claiming Sony are only interested in quantity over quality, and therefore claimed Sony would flood the market with cr*p and thus bring about the eventual downfall of the games industry.



Did it happen? No. Similar arguments were made regarding MS entering the console market with the XBox ("they are only in it for the money", "they will ruin the games market" etc), and did it happen? Nope. Will it happen? No. So cut out the nonsense please. The games industry is far stronger than that, and it thrives on competition, and whilst ALL the major three companies would like to dominate as much as possible, ALL three are aware that as much as they want to dominate, they also NEED the competition for the market to grow.



"All I said was, game coming to 360 - good, the means employed for bringing this and other games to the 360 - bad in the LONG RUN."



And all I said was I disagree, especially given the fact that you don't know the means employed to make this happen, you can only speculate, and even if it was true, I don't see it as bad in the long run at all.



"How does that make me a fanboy? I used to look at your posts with a certain respect, but I'm afraid, by your evasion and accusation, you lost that."



Well given your posts on QJ, I lost respect for you a long time ago, since you're just a closet fanboy (deny it all you like), so I guess the feeling is mutual. :)



"Sorry for the strong words. Just angry at bringing up a post relating to business practices and being accused of being a fanboy."



I see, so it's ok for you to call me a fanboy at the end of that first post, but when I direct the same accusation towards yourself, you are ever so shocked and offended! R-i-g-h-t.



From William Shakespeare's Hamlet, the Queen says "The lady doth protest too much, methinks", hence likewise, I feel that over being called a fanboy "You doth protest too much, methinks."



Have a nice day.

Being biased towards a specific company or console does not make someone a fanboy Thinker, since a fanboy is a label given to someone who's support for one side is matched by their hatred for the other side.



Hence no matter how biased you feel someone is towards one console or company, by their comments or actions, they are not fanboys unless that biased results in a similar dislike for part or all of the competition.



Think about that next time before you play the fanboy card, and perhaps you will avoid being upset if that card is thrown back at you.



So to quote myself "you ARE as much a PS3/Sony fanboy as I am a MS/360 fanboy". Think about what that means in light of what I've just said, and then perhaps next time the discussion would be a little more polite all round.

I just read through this thread again, and I think you're WAY over the top in the way you turned on me here, which I find very disappointing (hence my equally aggresive response).



Read it yourself and you'll see that I called you a hypocrite in response to your strong implication that I was a fanboy.



Calling you a hypocrite was NOT implying you are a fanboy, it was in response to the fact that you started your post by saying no-one should call YOU a fanboy, but you ended it by suggesting I'M a fanboy. That was the hypocracy I was referring to.



But after that ONE remark from me in defense (what did you expect btw?), you seem to have wound yourself up more and more with each new post, eventually responding as if I'd posted a lengthy attack against you .



So suddenly the gloves were off (as you said) and there you were giving me a really good kicking. Well thanks for nothing Thinker.



Perhaps you had a bad day, I don't know, but I do know that I didn't do you anything to justify that series of attacks from you. :(

"Think whatever you like Thinker......you ARE as much a PS3/Sony fanboy as I am a MS/360 fanboy."

-> You can say whatever you like, and if you feel you are fair and impartial, more power to you. As for that jab about token criticisms, I don't know whether QJ offers a search facility to search by User's posts (haven't tried - although I do know I can search out MY posts), you can look at my posts and decide for yourself. As I said, I speak from the viewpoint of owning and playing all three consoles. Don't know where you are coming from yourself.



"foolish to go overboard over speculation, and especially to your claim that MS could result in a future without better games and better hardware."

-> Well, the thing is, Nintendo fans may have expressed similar fears about Sony, but Sony is no MS. You really think what MS has done in the past with other products may not happen here?



"ALL three are aware that as much as they want to dominate, they also NEED the competition for the market to grow."

-> Well, do you really think anybody who wants to dominate WANTS competitors? Come on! All I'm saying is that MS has paid off developers in the past, and this sudden move makes me think this is how they got this one as well. And Microsoft has certainly successfully established itself as a monopoly in other markets, usually to the detriment of innovation (I'm sure you are aware of the Browser wars, and how they stayed stagnant for a long time until Firefox forced them to start moving again). All I'm saying is I don't prefer a gaming market where the only thing you see around for miles is MS, MS and MS, with no choices and Internet Explorer-5 like "innovation" and Windows-like "stability".



"Well given your posts on QJ, I lost respect for you a long time ago, since you're just a closet fanboy (deny it all you like), so I guess the feeling is mutual. :)"

-> As I said, you can think what you like - and convince yourself that I'm not even aware that I'm one :) - all I know is, I have tried out all present-gen consoles, own all of these, and regularly buy games for and play all of these. So you can pat yourself on the back thinking you've done your psycho-analysis bit on me if that makes you feel all warm inside ;) - I know where I'm coming from. But about this part "feeling is mutual", I'm afraid you are right. I guess the feeling of contempt is mutual, although I wish this weren't so - as I had hoped that given your polished language, you were someone with whom proper debates could be held, but no - you seemed to think only PS3 supporters required dismissal. As for a closet fanboy, you may need to go no farther than the mirror to find one :).



"I see, so it's ok for you to call me a fanboy at the end of that first post, but when I direct the same accusation towards yourself, you are ever so shocked and offended! R-i-g-h-t."

-> Let's go through a summary of my first post, shall we: I said this is what I think MS is doing, and looking at MS's business tactics and ESTABLISHED history, I think this is what is going to happen. Then I say I think your posts only seem to single out PS3-supporters (notice I didn't say FANBOY - you were the one who brought out that word). Then, your first response to my post seems to be an accusation of FANBOY to counter the statement I made about the general slant of your posts. Who was being touchy there? :) . After which, (in my eyes) you trid to twist my words about MS' methods, ignore ALL of MS past history and imply that this move towards a possible gaming monopoly is in our best interests. And then you think that shouldn't touch a nerve?



Well, nice to know you read some of the classics (I haven't - and this is not sarcasm about being knowledgeable abt classics). Afraid I don't know any appropriate quotes for this instance. As for your quote, I guess it falls in-line with what you've managed to convince yourself about me.



As for a dislike about the competition, what should I dislike? The console I own (a 360?) or on which I have played several games? In my mind, I li

".I can happily skip over this last post of yours with the knowledge that there's nothing worth reading in it, other than your usual speculation, assumptions and lack of any facts"

-> So you are skipping reading a post and positing knowledge about that post? tsk-tsk.



Let's see some of your statements, shall we?

- "So the US version would have been released months after Japan anyway"

- "360 port should be relatively painless"

- "So I doubt the 360 will add much (if anything) to delay the game further in the US and Europe."

- All you are using to support your argument of porting time is compatibility of game engine.

- While you were saying I was resorting to assumptions and was reaching for conclusions, I see a lot of "should be"s, "would have"s and implied possibles in most of your post. From that standpoint, your post is not much more than a load of hot air as well :).



What I said in my last post (and you saw fit to skip) is that this is a finished (or nearly finished - don't know) application using a software engine we are discussing. Not something in its initial stages. Wouldn't that mean porting a finished application is not so straightforward ? What I based my argument on was that I myself am in the software field (although not games).



"And yes my 'conscience is clear when I post something' too, however by your over sensitivity to being called a fanboy (which you are happy to call others), I seem to have stuck a nerve there, so obviously I'm far closer to the truth than you're willing to admit (perhaps even to yourself)."

-> As for the rest of this, I think I have repeated myself enough times. Please read my last post in the discussion thread above.



Regards,

MTK

"I want to apologise for some of my comments in response to your chain of attacks against me, I got a little annoyed and it showed."

-> Actually, that was me as well, and I guess I got a little carried away too. Apologies :)



"You are biased towards Sony/PS3"

-> I've never denied that. I even say it outright (in my first - or was it second? - post). I do like the PS3, but don't hate MS or Nintendo or shun their products. What they are offering is not bad as well, and so I own and enjoy their consoles too.



"This onw, well I think we'll have to agree to disagree and move on. Agreed? :) "

-> Agreed :)

As raggedjimmi said 'Square go where the money is', and for the last two generations, that meant Playstation, but things are different today.



I don't believe a FF game has ever been released exclusively on the console with the smallest user base, and therefore I think Square were waiting to see what happens in the market before deciding on a 360 version. In my opinion, if Square Enix expected the PS3 to match or overtake the 360 in worldwide sales by the time FFXIII was released, then it may have remained a PS3 exclusive.



Also, it was not so much that they couldn't do FF7 on the N64, they were developing the game for Nintendo's console first, but they switched to the Playstation because CD offered about 10 times the capacity of the first N64 cartridges, which meant they could do much more with the game, and not only that, but the Playstation was to be launched a year earlier than the N64.



One last observation, reading though this thread, some people seem to think that this decision by Square was made quickly, perhaps following a bribe from Microsoft or something, but I doubt it, I believe they made this decision a long time ago, perhaps conditionally (depending on sales of both consoles).



And remember this anyone? From March 2007;



http://kotaku.com/gaming/ffxiii/rumour-ffxiii-exclusivity-up-in-the-air-246094.php



'Lastly, for Final Fantasy XIII, I can say to you that exclusiveness is under discussion'



So despite the denials from Square Enix later, PS3 exclusivity was never really set in stone. At this time, I expect they were already developing their multiple platform engine for PC and consoles, making it easier to bring FF to the 360 in future if they chose to do so (which we now know they did).



And don't rip me a new one guys, just expressing my opinion. :-P

That's why I got irritated earlier in this topic with the claim that this was all because of MS forcing SE (by what ever means claimed) into producing a 360 version.



The fact is, Sony doesn't dominate the market as they did with the PS2 and Playstation. Back then, Square could afford to ignore the competition, but things are different today, and therefore the 360 offers millions of potential sales for FFXIII, perhaps even selling more than the PS3 version.



So Jez made a good point when he said SE were probably waiting to see what was happening with the sales of each console before making a final decision.



As you basically said, given the high cost of developing FFXIII, the 360's install base was just too large for SE to ignore. :)