Posted Dec 13, 2008 at 02:33PM by Isaac C.
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 This isn't so much a news article as it is a question of our culture as gamers.Did you cry when Aeris died? Has any game ever made you cry? No. At least, not according to Chris Bateman of Only a Game. Bateman suggests that stories make us cry, not games. Or to be more specific about it, it wasn't the interactive gaming elements that brought us to tears, it was the story. He posits: This is the nub of the issue here: a story can make you cry by empathising with the protagonist (or another character), but a game (when viewed as a formal system) cannot do this. It follows that the only way that a videogame can make you cry is by using narrative tools that have nothing to do with games as formal systems whatsoever. He cites Final Fantasy VII, of course, saying that Aeris' death was a cut-scene - a non-interactive cut scene at that. "It wasn't the game (in the systems view) that made them cry – it was the story – and there never was a question as to whether stories could make you cry." He explores the subject rather thoroughly. It's a rather interesting topic for me, since it can potentially question the validity of consoles as a storytelling medium. That topic's rather touchy, especially since one of the arguments against "violent games" revolves around the idea that video games are violent not for the story's sake, but for the interactive value. You can read Bateman's entire post after the source link below. Related Articles:
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11 Jumps
Reach won't be the last for Halo?
18 Comments
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by RommelTJ - 2008-12-13 |
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» Different
When you watch a cut-scene and when you are pressing buttons and reacting to stuff on screen, you are using different parts of your brain. You can tell a story in more than one way.
By the way Issac, what a shame that you didn't ask us if we ever cried or felt sad in a videogame. Missed opportunity.
Personally, I didn't cry when Aeris died, but I did feel angry. I also felt in love in Final Fantasy VIII. Its creepy. I get scared in Horror games. So yeah, you can definitely tell a story.
When you watch a cut-scene and when you are pressing buttons and reacting to stuff on screen, you are using different parts of your brain. You can tell a story in more than one way.
By the way Issac, what a shame that you didn't ask us if we ever cried or felt sad in a videogame. Missed opportunity.
Personally, I didn't cry when Aeris died, but I did feel angry. I also felt in love in Final Fantasy VIII. Its creepy. I get scared in Horror games. So yeah, you can definitely tell a story.
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by Gameeye2 - 2008-12-13 |
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» OMGGGGG
YOU DIDNT MARK SPOILERS!!!!!%%#$#$$!%%!
YOU DIDNT MARK SPOILERS!!!!!%%#$#$$!%%!
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by Tesseract - 2008-12-13 |
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» Unique Storytelling (Possible Spoilers)
I don't think the validity of Games as storytelling media is at question at all. I don't think I would have reacted quite the same at Aeris' death if it was just something I was watching, rather than having her by my side, healing my party and riding the roller coaster on a date.
Good stories attach you to a character, then yank those heartstrings HARD. Games have a unique opportunity to do that. You have cameraderie over not just 2 hours, but sometimes 10-40.
Granted some moments that have made me choke up could have been done in movies, but another 'cruelty' to it is that I as a player and as a character in the story have to put that aside and continue the quest. You can't just stop playing Wild ARMs after Guardia's State Funeral. You can't just ignore the howling cries in the distance as Sniper Wolf breathes her last breath in MGS. You still have a 'job' to do. Sometimes, it even INSPIRES you. You really WANTED to off Sephiroth after he killed Aeris while she was praying. Not just to finish the game, but because you wanted REVENGE on the summa*****.
Movies just haven't entertained or engaged me as much as games have. I'm not just watching it happen: I'm PART of it.
As for the violent aspect of it, it's simply a matter of proper targetting. If you have this rage festering because of how much of a ***** Sakaki's being to Atoli in dothack GU, you don't take it out on your next door neighbor. Take it out on Sakaki. Pissed off that you just can't finish that Timesplitters Mission where you have to escort Past Cortez on Hard difficulty? Don't shoot a classmate, just hit retry or turn it off for a while.
I think it could honestly be a great aid to helping parents observe their children reacting to stressful or violent situations and talking to them about it. The problem comes when a someone who doesn't have the maturity to separate fiction and reality when it counts is plunked down in front of the Playstation and the parent just walks out.
PARENTS are the key to violent video games (and movies) affecting kids. THAT'S the important message that needs to get out there.
I don't think the validity of Games as storytelling media is at question at all. I don't think I would have reacted quite the same at Aeris' death if it was just something I was watching, rather than having her by my side, healing my party and riding the roller coaster on a date.
Good stories attach you to a character, then yank those heartstrings HARD. Games have a unique opportunity to do that. You have cameraderie over not just 2 hours, but sometimes 10-40.
Granted some moments that have made me choke up could have been done in movies, but another 'cruelty' to it is that I as a player and as a character in the story have to put that aside and continue the quest. You can't just stop playing Wild ARMs after Guardia's State Funeral. You can't just ignore the howling cries in the distance as Sniper Wolf breathes her last breath in MGS. You still have a 'job' to do. Sometimes, it even INSPIRES you. You really WANTED to off Sephiroth after he killed Aeris while she was praying. Not just to finish the game, but because you wanted REVENGE on the summa*****.
Movies just haven't entertained or engaged me as much as games have. I'm not just watching it happen: I'm PART of it.
As for the violent aspect of it, it's simply a matter of proper targetting. If you have this rage festering because of how much of a ***** Sakaki's being to Atoli in dothack GU, you don't take it out on your next door neighbor. Take it out on Sakaki. Pissed off that you just can't finish that Timesplitters Mission where you have to escort Past Cortez on Hard difficulty? Don't shoot a classmate, just hit retry or turn it off for a while.
I think it could honestly be a great aid to helping parents observe their children reacting to stressful or violent situations and talking to them about it. The problem comes when a someone who doesn't have the maturity to separate fiction and reality when it counts is plunked down in front of the Playstation and the parent just walks out.
PARENTS are the key to violent video games (and movies) affecting kids. THAT'S the important message that needs to get out there.
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Re: RommelTJ - 2008-12-13 |
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» Hmm
While I agree with you, games have been questioned as a storytelling media. Most old people, including Roger Ebert and most film critics, argue that film and videogames are really different.
While I agree with you, games have been questioned as a storytelling media. Most old people, including Roger Ebert and most film critics, argue that film and videogames are really different.
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Re: Tesseract - 2008-12-13 |
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» Re: Rommel TJ
I'd love to hear those arguments. Got any links?
I agree that film and videogames are different as storytelling media... But saying that games aren't a valid means of storytelling is like saying that Films are invalid as storytelling media because they're not novels.
Oddly enough, I think that book conversions to game would be better (if done well) than they would to film. You don't have to skimp storyline to slim your film down to 2 hours or chop it into two parts (I'm looking at YOU, Harry Potter...)
Oddly enough, VERY few films have done first-person properly. Blair Witch Project was one of those, I think. But first-person is what tends to draw one into a story more solidly. I'd almost say that films (while occasionally pleasant to experience) are not as engaging of a storytelling medium as a videogame or even a good book.
I'd love to hear those arguments. Got any links?
I agree that film and videogames are different as storytelling media... But saying that games aren't a valid means of storytelling is like saying that Films are invalid as storytelling media because they're not novels.
Oddly enough, I think that book conversions to game would be better (if done well) than they would to film. You don't have to skimp storyline to slim your film down to 2 hours or chop it into two parts (I'm looking at YOU, Harry Potter...)
Oddly enough, VERY few films have done first-person properly. Blair Witch Project was one of those, I think. But first-person is what tends to draw one into a story more solidly. I'd almost say that films (while occasionally pleasant to experience) are not as engaging of a storytelling medium as a videogame or even a good book.
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Re: RommelTJ - 2008-12-13 |
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» Sure
To spare you the effort, I'll provide a brief summary of the argument against Video Game as a storytelling medium:
Argument against: Video game storytelling is only a mix between a novel (the scripted text story) and film (the cut-scenes or scripted scenes). The story of a videogame cannot be changed, even if it is very variable, because it has been programmed in by the programmer. Therefore, any interactions made by the player do not matter, because the story telling is fixed and you cannot do anything about it. Anything that causes emotions or values in a videogame are made in parts that are not under player control. So, it is the story that makes you cry, not the game.
Link: http://www.airshowfan.com/videogames-narrative-storytelling-medium.htm
A (better) argument against: Made famous by Roger Ebert is the argument that interactivity invalidates video games as a storytelling medium. He says that a story is created by the artist. If you change it, then you are the artist. Therefore, you cannot tell a story with a video game because YOU are making it. he argues that a story should lead you to a conclusion, and not a variety of choices. He views games as more a sport, where you are an active participant.
Link: http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID+/20070721/COMMENTARY/70721001
My argument for: Video games are storytelling mediums, but in a different way. I would agree that most games, like shooters or any game where you point and shoot, cannot tell stories. No, Halo and Resistance are not telling a story. Like the above argument, you are simply making some unimportant moves until the next cutscenes. However, some games, like Fallout 1+2, or the upcoming Heavy Rain, allow you to finish the game with a distinct choice. This choice is the videogame way of telling a story. It can involve real immersion and its the culmination of the message written by the Programmer. Even though the culmination of the story was yours, it was pre-determined. This interactivity is what distinguishes the game from the novel or the film. You made it happen, yet it was pre-determined to be so by the programmer. Its an unique way for videogames to tell stories, and I don't expect non-gamers to understand it because it's very complex.
I'll stop here because I can go on and on.
To spare you the effort, I'll provide a brief summary of the argument against Video Game as a storytelling medium:
Argument against: Video game storytelling is only a mix between a novel (the scripted text story) and film (the cut-scenes or scripted scenes). The story of a videogame cannot be changed, even if it is very variable, because it has been programmed in by the programmer. Therefore, any interactions made by the player do not matter, because the story telling is fixed and you cannot do anything about it. Anything that causes emotions or values in a videogame are made in parts that are not under player control. So, it is the story that makes you cry, not the game.
Link: http://www.airshowfan.com/videogames-narrative-storytelling-medium.htm
A (better) argument against: Made famous by Roger Ebert is the argument that interactivity invalidates video games as a storytelling medium. He says that a story is created by the artist. If you change it, then you are the artist. Therefore, you cannot tell a story with a video game because YOU are making it. he argues that a story should lead you to a conclusion, and not a variety of choices. He views games as more a sport, where you are an active participant.
Link: http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID+/20070721/COMMENTARY/70721001
My argument for: Video games are storytelling mediums, but in a different way. I would agree that most games, like shooters or any game where you point and shoot, cannot tell stories. No, Halo and Resistance are not telling a story. Like the above argument, you are simply making some unimportant moves until the next cutscenes. However, some games, like Fallout 1+2, or the upcoming Heavy Rain, allow you to finish the game with a distinct choice. This choice is the videogame way of telling a story. It can involve real immersion and its the culmination of the message written by the Programmer. Even though the culmination of the story was yours, it was pre-determined. This interactivity is what distinguishes the game from the novel or the film. You made it happen, yet it was pre-determined to be so by the programmer. Its an unique way for videogames to tell stories, and I don't expect non-gamers to understand it because it's very complex.
I'll stop here because I can go on and on.
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by emcp - 2008-12-13 |
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» mm
YES
i cried when i was playing wii sports, and my fist went through the television screen
:D
[no im not those *****in retards, it never happened]
YES
i cried when i was playing wii sports, and my fist went through the television screen
:D
[no im not those *****in retards, it never happened]
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by platon - 2008-12-13 |
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» what a bad interpretation...
"it can potentially question the validity of consoles as a storytelling medium"
Not at all, if you take it like that, movies can't make you try, nor books, nor games, nor friends, familly, love, etc. I mean, you can tell stories in real life, books, movies, video games, etc, it's the same. DAH you won't be moved by the polygons, same for every medium. What a bad interpretation...
"it can potentially question the validity of consoles as a storytelling medium"
Not at all, if you take it like that, movies can't make you try, nor books, nor games, nor friends, familly, love, etc. I mean, you can tell stories in real life, books, movies, video games, etc, it's the same. DAH you won't be moved by the polygons, same for every medium. What a bad interpretation...
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by Genotype - 2008-12-13 |
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» Uhh...
What a senseless point to try and make. Is he suggesting that games should do away with narratives? If that isn't his point, what is?
What a senseless point to try and make. Is he suggesting that games should do away with narratives? If that isn't his point, what is?
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by FABLE - 2008-12-13 |
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» .
Madden and NBA2K have made me cry many times and they contain 0 story :)
To be serious, I have no idea what point he is trying to make. Ok, the story makes us cry. Movies don't make us cry, the stories in them do. The story is a part of the game, therefore the game made me cry. I just don't understand why what he is saying is significant.
As for the whole violence in video games, I really dont believe that playing violent video games has made me violent. I've been playing violent video games since i was around 9 and no matter what somebody does to me, I would never do anything to physically harm them (unless they're trying to stab me or something and i need to protect myself or a loved one). I'm obviously no expert on the subject matter of course so I dont think my opinion really matters that much haha Hopefully the Psych courses I take in school next year will allow me to form a better opinion.
Madden and NBA2K have made me cry many times and they contain 0 story :)
To be serious, I have no idea what point he is trying to make. Ok, the story makes us cry. Movies don't make us cry, the stories in them do. The story is a part of the game, therefore the game made me cry. I just don't understand why what he is saying is significant.
As for the whole violence in video games, I really dont believe that playing violent video games has made me violent. I've been playing violent video games since i was around 9 and no matter what somebody does to me, I would never do anything to physically harm them (unless they're trying to stab me or something and i need to protect myself or a loved one). I'm obviously no expert on the subject matter of course so I dont think my opinion really matters that much haha Hopefully the Psych courses I take in school next year will allow me to form a better opinion.
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by itzzspencer - 2008-12-13 |
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» chris
bateman is an idoit.1, of course its not the GAME, but its the story in the game. for the most part, one doesnt work without the other. you wont cry reading that aries died. if you play the game, progressed in through the story AND watched the cut-scene, then makes it a lot more reasonable to cry.
bateman is an idoit.1, of course its not the GAME, but its the story in the game. for the most part, one doesnt work without the other. you wont cry reading that aries died. if you play the game, progressed in through the story AND watched the cut-scene, then makes it a lot more reasonable to cry.
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by GAWDIE - 2008-12-14 |
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» sniff
I wept like a baby during the microwave corridor and the post ending credits scenes in MGS4.
If I was reading this story or even watching a live actoin version, it wouldn't be the same at all.
I wept like a baby during the microwave corridor and the post ending credits scenes in MGS4.
If I was reading this story or even watching a live actoin version, it wouldn't be the same at all.
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by PT-X - 2008-12-14 |
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» Let say
Let say if u follow the story line which is always in a freaking games......like Final fantsy....it may effect u or not it depend on ur feeling......
ME screw feeling with game I dont give a *****..u die Cloud..I dont care...I dont even shock when watch horror *****...nothing do to since...she left me!
Let say if u follow the story line which is always in a freaking games......like Final fantsy....it may effect u or not it depend on ur feeling......
ME screw feeling with game I dont give a *****..u die Cloud..I dont care...I dont even shock when watch horror *****...nothing do to since...she left me!
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by Navani - 2008-12-14 |
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» well
I remember crying when I played Superman 64, and it definitely wasn't just the story
I remember crying when I played Superman 64, and it definitely wasn't just the story
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by StingBlah - 2008-12-14 |
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» i almost cried **SPOILERS for MGS4**
at the end of MGS4. I CRINGED as he put the gun to his mouth and pulled the trigger. I was in total disbelief, but I sort of knew this was coming. I was full of respect for him--he gave everyone a happy ending, and nobly killed himself to stop FOXDIE.
Then I saw that Snake didn't die, and the last cutscene just ruined it all. It was almost laughable, with that old guy in a wheel chair. And wtf, BIG BOSS is alive TOO?! And they went into another one of those 20 minute explanation about the Patriots and the AI where nothing makes sense, and found myself thinking about dinner. Dinner, while ending the game with the greatest storyline of all time.
Snake never really seemed like he was in for a happy ending at the time, and he knew it. He was fighting to his death. Then at the end its like "hey, let's go around the world with Otacon!"
WORST way to end the series.
at the end of MGS4. I CRINGED as he put the gun to his mouth and pulled the trigger. I was in total disbelief, but I sort of knew this was coming. I was full of respect for him--he gave everyone a happy ending, and nobly killed himself to stop FOXDIE.
Then I saw that Snake didn't die, and the last cutscene just ruined it all. It was almost laughable, with that old guy in a wheel chair. And wtf, BIG BOSS is alive TOO?! And they went into another one of those 20 minute explanation about the Patriots and the AI where nothing makes sense, and found myself thinking about dinner. Dinner, while ending the game with the greatest storyline of all time.
Snake never really seemed like he was in for a happy ending at the time, and he knew it. He was fighting to his death. Then at the end its like "hey, let's go around the world with Otacon!"
WORST way to end the series.
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by cizzar - 2008-12-14 |
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» seriously
no game ever pushed me to cry.
All I ever felt while playing a game was anger when it was "game over !" and stress (when fighting a boss and I only have like 1 life, or when the atmosphere is creepy)
no game ever pushed me to cry.
All I ever felt while playing a game was anger when it was "game over !" and stress (when fighting a boss and I only have like 1 life, or when the atmosphere is creepy)
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Re: StingBlah - 2008-12-14 |
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» hmm
you must be an xbox owner...
you must be an xbox owner...
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by ISOHaven - 2008-12-15 |
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» WTF!?!?!?!?!
I completely disagree. The STORY part of a game is all the cut scenes and text. If you remove the GAMEPLAY and just show people the cutscenes and text, I bet you get a different reaction then from those that play the actual game.
When you play a game, you fantasize. You take part in the story. You become vested (if you allow yourself).
Cough up 10,000 people who play a game then cough up 10,000 people who only watch the cutscenes and read the text. Then we'll talk more.
I completely disagree. The STORY part of a game is all the cut scenes and text. If you remove the GAMEPLAY and just show people the cutscenes and text, I bet you get a different reaction then from those that play the actual game.
When you play a game, you fantasize. You take part in the story. You become vested (if you allow yourself).
Cough up 10,000 people who play a game then cough up 10,000 people who only watch the cutscenes and read the text. Then we'll talk more.
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